Are ALL the Novus Ordo Hymns THAT Bad?

Started by TheReturnofLive, January 16, 2019, 03:43:55 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

TheReturnofLive

While I think that the Tridentine Mass, in comparison to the Novus Ordo Mass, is supreme overall, and many hymns - maybe even a majority - are cringe-inducing (Sorry, "Lord of the Dance," I don't find your music fitting for Mass), I don't think that it's the case that everything bad has come from the Novus Ordo, and that all the hymns that have been subsequently composed for the Novus Ordo are bad.

Here's a clip, for example, of something that I find beautiful. It's John Paul II in New York, Central Park, performing Mass in 1995 - this is the Alleluia being sung.

The Hymn used is the "Celtic Alleluia," composed by Irish Jesuits in the 80s.

https://ytcropper.com/cropped/yK5c3fa4815f6b8
"The task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles but irrigate deserts." - C.S. Lewis

Maximilian

Quote from: TheReturnofLive on January 16, 2019, 03:43:55 PM

I don't think that it's the case that everything bad has come from the Novus Ordo, and that all the hymns that have been subsequently composed for the Novus Ordo are bad.

I do. Universally.

Quote from: TheReturnofLive on January 16, 2019, 03:43:55 PM

Here's a clip, for example, of something that I find beautiful. It's John Paul II in New York, Central Park, performing Mass in 1995 - this is the Alleluia being sung.

Beautiful, no.
Appropriate for Mass, no.

Quote from: TheReturnofLive on January 16, 2019, 03:43:55 PM

The Hymn used is the "Celtic Alleluia," composed by Irish Jesuits in the 80s.

https://ytcropper.com/cropped/yK5c3fa4815f6b8

This song is certainly above average compared to other N.O. hymns. That's only because it's based on a traditional Irish tune.

Philip G.

#2
theReturnofLive - Beautiful is a subjective term, sacred is not.  That song is not sacred.
For the stone shall cry out of the wall; and the timber that is between the joints of the building, shall answer.  Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and prepareth a city by iniquity. - Habacuc 2,11-12

TheReturnofLive

#3
Quote from: Maximilian on January 16, 2019, 06:27:30 PM
This song is certainly above average compared to other N.O. hymns. That's only because it's based on a traditional Irish tune.

Which tune? It certainly sounds Irish - but which tune?

I know that the Novus Ordo hymns generally steal from classical music and interpolate it into the Mass - "Joyful Joyful we adore thee" etc.
"The task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles but irrigate deserts." - C.S. Lewis

TheReturnofLive

#4
Quote from: Philip G. on January 16, 2019, 06:33:58 PM
theReturnofLive - Beautiful is a subjective term, sacred is not.  That song is not sacred.

I concord.
"The task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles but irrigate deserts." - C.S. Lewis

Miriam_M

I think the OP asks a fair question, simply because there is a small subset of modern Christian music (such as certain complex, 4-part hymns outside of the polyphonic era) that is, on its own, decent music from the point of view of us musicians (i.e., within accepted musical standards).  It could be legitimately called "sacred music," just as J.S. Bach, Handel, Mozart, and many others wrote moving, soul-uplifting music in the genre that is universally considered sacred music.

That is not the same thing as music typically suitable for the TLM, of course -- not only because it is not Gregorian chant or classical polyphony, but also because it would typically call for instruments forbidden at a TLM, such as full or partial orchestra.

Nevertheless, the vast majority of N.O. Masses do not concern themselves with quality sacred music.  Instead, one hears Protestant hymns (literally), often with unorthodox lyrics, even more often with insipid or offensive lyrics -- such as Gather Us In, the Proud and the Haughty, which is practically blasphemous as a product of keystrokes.  Dan Schutte and Marty Haugen are not even very good composers.  Schutte writes in a genre that is called "worship songs" or "songs of praise" (both Protestant terms), and Haugen, a Lutheran, writes music for Lutheran worship services.

These men write for the lowest common denominators -- the most theologically ignorant and the least musically capable.

In some, less "contemporary" N.O. parishes, hymns are sometimes chosen from the Adoremus Hymnal, which is at least fairly Catholic, even though so many of those hymns are led by women taking over the sanctuary.  (Cringe.)

Howard Kopsho

There are no Novus Ordo hymns that are bad.

John Lamb

"Let all bitterness and animosity and indignation and defamation be removed from you, together with every evil. And become helpfully kind to one another, inwardly compassionate, forgiving among yourselves, just as God also graciously forgave you in the Anointed." – St. Paul

John Lamb

Quote from: Philip G. on January 16, 2019, 06:33:58 PM
theReturnofLive - Beautiful is a subjective term, sacred is not.  That song is not sacred.

The instruments make it sound more secular and the cantor having an operatic style doesn't help. I've heard the "celtic alleluia" sung more plainly and though it's quite jolly I think it's dignified enough as sacred music (the Kyrie for the Missa de Angelis is fairly jolly as well). Plenty of beautiful Mass settings (e.g. Mozart) are more secular than sacred in how they're written. Like the Gloria in Bach's B minor Mass which sounds quite secular music to me:

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izVzruuk1lc[/yt]
"Let all bitterness and animosity and indignation and defamation be removed from you, together with every evil. And become helpfully kind to one another, inwardly compassionate, forgiving among yourselves, just as God also graciously forgave you in the Anointed." – St. Paul

John Lamb

The most sober and dignified rendering of the celtic alleluia I could find:

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Sh_uEG0gLI[/yt]

I think this is fairly close to the standards of sacred music, though it's not as profound as most Gregorian or Byzantine chant.
"Let all bitterness and animosity and indignation and defamation be removed from you, together with every evil. And become helpfully kind to one another, inwardly compassionate, forgiving among yourselves, just as God also graciously forgave you in the Anointed." – St. Paul

Josephine87

Can someone explain why the woman singing at the microphone during the Novus Ordo uses the operatic style? They always sound like Miss Piggy to me.
"Begin again." -St. Teresa of Avila

"My present trial seems to me a somewhat painful one, and I have the humiliation of knowing how badly I bore it at first. I now want to accept and to carry this little cross joyfully, to carry it silently, with a smile in my heart and on my lips, in union with the Cross of Christ. My God, blessed be Thou; accept from me each day the embarrassment, inconvenience, and pain this misery causes me. May it become a prayer and an act of reparation." -Elisabeth Leseur

Green

#11
My main gripe with Novus Ordo is often the music selection, who chooses it anyway?

Clare

I must confess to not disliking some Taizé chants. I was in a NO folk group in my youth, and Taizé chants were my first exposure to Latin.
Motes 'n' Beams blog

Feel free to play the Trivia Quiz!

O Mary, Immaculate Mother of Jesus, offer, we beseech thee, to the Eternal Father, the Precious Blood of thy Divine Son to prevent at least one mortal sin from being committed somewhere in the world this day.

"It is a much less work to have won the battle of Waterloo, or to have invented the steam-engine, than to have freed one soul from Purgatory." - Fr Faber

"When faced by our limitations, we must have recourse to the practice of offering to God the good works of others." - St Therese of Lisieux

Howard Kopsho

#13
Quote from: John Lamb on January 21, 2019, 04:29:29 PM
Quote from: Howard Kopsho on January 21, 2019, 04:11:41 PM
There are no Novus Ordo hymns that are bad.

Now we KNOW you're a troll.
Just because I don't believe that Novus Ordo hymns are not fine does not denote that I am a troll. The Vatican has no problem with the hymns utilized in the Novus Ordo Mass.

Tales