FSSP priests attacking SSPX?

[Sempronius]

I think one could definitely go to all catholic masses. As long as one doesnt follow the participants bad examples which are mostly laziness and gluttony..

[Traditionallyruralmom]

4. On the flip side of the coin, the "hidden Christians" of Japan went 250 years without ever seeing a Catholic priest. And yet when a new persecution came at the time of the opening to the West, they were willing to be tortured to death rather than renounce their Faith.

Assuming that over these 10 generations some of these Christians went to Heaven despite a lack of connection to the physical Church, it seems to me to suggest that it is not critical as to whether FSSP / SSPX / Diocesan priest is objectively valid.  Presumably the saintly Japanese Christians made a spiritual connection to the Church and that this was sufficient.  Thus, for a Catholic whom has and lives the Faith, loves God and desires a union with His Church, what does it matter as to the objective state of the priest of his parish?  It apparently can be done with no priest.

This is not to say that it is not indeed better to have a priest, or that certain priests are of better quality than others, its merely questioning how important (if at all) it actually is that the priest is validly ordained.

If nothing else, it seems that in times of crisis, there is understanding by God.  God knew those Japanese Christians lacked access to the sacraments and physical connection to His Church.  Similarly, He knows that the state of the clergy today is disastrous and its unclear where and what the physical Church is (similar to the Western Schism).  If those Japanese can be saved with no physical Church, cannot a good Catholic today be saved even if the FSSP / SSPX / diocese he attends is objectively not the Church?

Yes, I know this seems to be a very slippery slope.  I am perplexed by this and am interested in hearing others' thoughts.

This is a very valid and common sense point.  I would even add those Sedes who "Francis is not the pope" thought does not consume their thoughts constantly, but rather is just a decisoin they can peacefully live with.  They have made their decision and moved on with their life, trying as hard as they can to live the authentic Catholic faith and teach the true Dogmas and morals to their children.

[Xavier]

Barbarossa, I'll get back with the old and new rites of consecration later.

Some encouraging stats from St. Peter's Fraternity for now. Traditional orders are blossoming all around the world. The Church needs more of them.

"Did you see the statistics from the past year? Here are some highlights, and they are as encouraging as ever. As the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter celebrates its 30th anniversary this year, we have been blessed with continuing growth, an abundance of vocations, and a young average age (38). Numbers include the FSSP worldwide.

For full statistics, including country breakdown and Confraternity numbers, click here.

Membership
Total Members: 437

Priests: 287
– 272 incardinated
– 8 incorporated ad annum
– 5 associated
– 2 postulants

Deacons: 21

Non-deacon seminarians (including postulants): 129

Average age of members: 38

Deceased members: 8

Number of members (as of January 1 each year):

Locations
Dioceses served: 129

Mass centers: 239 locations

Personal parishes: 40

Number of houses: 125

Number of erected houses: 85" https://fssp.com/fssp-2017-numbers/

[dymphnaw]

Is the DC mission Mass still at 9:30?

[Heinrich]

Some articles for those interested in studying the matter of validity of Ordination (Episcopal Consecration is another issue) further:

Article from SSPX Asia on New and Old Rite of Priestly Ordination: http://www.sspxasia.com/Newsletters/1998/December/Priestly-Ordinations-New-Vs-Old-Rite.htm

The new rite of ordination itself: 1968 Ordination Rite

The traditional rite of Priestly Ordination from Sancta Missa: Traditional Rite of Priestly Ordination

]To me, the SSPX really contributed to their own mess by recognizing the FSSP as valid priests.

Edit: But truth cannot be based on expediency. Since the new rite is valid and studies have shown as much, it is ok to say that it is.

Many studies have shown otherwise. +Lefebrve doubted them. +Tissier de Mallerais doubts them. Paul VI promulgated them' and he wasn't even Catholic. That tells me there is enough to doubt them.

There are many sedevacantists who doubt the ordination of Lefebrve(as bishop). There are sedes who doubt the Thuc ordinations. There are sedes who do a '55 Holy Week, some who don't. It is so simply analogous to Protestantism; apparently lack of Grace does make people dumb. It's like they need a person to come in a settle all the isssues. Am I right?

The simple fact is, regardless of all the legal finessing and sweet talk emotionalism, that unless you are in the confines of the jurisdictional Church, you are out of it. No matter how much Bellarmine one knows and interprets him to his liking, it doesn't give a person or groups of people the right to go and set up a parallel Church. If these groups were so holy and sanctified, there would be a desire to implement the correct changes from within the structures instead of arrogantly rebelling.

[Maximilian]

Some encouraging stats from St. Peter's Fraternity for now.

"Did you see the statistics from the past year? Here are some highlights, and they are as encouraging as ever... Numbers include the FSSP worldwide.

This kind of bragging about statistics is universal, so it's not fair to single out the FSSP, but apparently they are no better than others. I've seen the most liberal order of nuns who are down to their last handful of old women put together a package of similar "lies, damn lies, and statistics."

Priests: 287

Subtracting the original group who broke away from the SSPX in 1988, and dividing by 30, you get around 8 priests per year. That's something, but it's not much. It's not explosive, it's not exponential, it's not even really growing.

[awkwardcustomer]

There are many sedevacantists who doubt the ordination of Lefebrve(as bishop). There are sedes who doubt the Thuc ordinations. There are sedes who do a '55 Holy Week, some who don't. It is so simply analogous to Protestantism; apparently lack of Grace does make people dumb. It's like they need a person to come in a settle all the isssues. Am I right?

The simple fact is, regardless of all the legal finessing and sweet talk emotionalism, that unless you are in the confines of the jurisdictional Church, you are out of it. No matter how much Bellarmine one knows and interprets him to his liking, it doesn't give a person or groups of people the right to go and set up a parallel Church. If these groups were so holy and sanctified, there would be a desire to implement the correct changes from within the structures instead of arrogantly rebelling.

Have you ever met any Sedevacantists who doubt the Lefebvre consecrations or the validity of the Thuc ordinations?  There may be a few extremists online but have you any idea what the majority of actual Sedes think, about anything?

And how can either of these doubts, which are opinions not directed at any teaching of the Church, be equated with the heresy of Protestantism which is an attack on Dogma?  And as for Sedes needing someone to settle matters for them because they're "dumb", I'm always hearing "Father said this", "Father said that", on this forum.  Honestly!

And no, you're not right.  You're wrong.  But carry on.  Every day you proclaim these false 'popes' to be Popes, you strengthen their position.  But as long as you have your chapels and your Masses, why would you care?   

[Gardener]

Some encouraging stats from St. Peter's Fraternity for now.

"Did you see the statistics from the past year? Here are some highlights, and they are as encouraging as ever... Numbers include the FSSP worldwide.

This kind of bragging about statistics is universal, so it's not fair to single out the FSSP, but apparently they are no better than others. I've seen the most liberal order of nuns who are down to their last handful of old women put together a package of similar "lies, damn lies, and statistics."

Priests: 287

Subtracting the original group who broke away from the SSPX in 1988, and dividing by 30, you get around 8 priests per year. That's something, but it's not much. It's not explosive, it's not exponential, it's not even really growing.

For someone who says "lies, damn lies, and statistics" out of one side of your mouth, you try a statistical trick out of the other (averaging rather than dealing with actual growth numbers; growth != average) lol.

On average, ~33% of men who enter seminary will be ordained. That holds for Novus Ordo, FSSP, the Institute, and probably SSPX.

Some years that average changes and some years it holds. It's entirely predicated on the number that entered for their class year.

Growth beyond the norm/excessively fast is not always a good thing, as it means some turds slipped through the crack when they shouldn't have.

[Xavier]

SSPX Article Establishing Validity of the New Rite of Consecration: SSPX Article on NREC

Brief Excerpt: ""Let us note in passing that these two rites are perfectly Catholic ... To assure ourselves of the validity of Pope Paul VI's rite, it will suffice for us to place side by side the new consecratory prayer and the two Eastern rites in question. The validity of these two rites can in no wise be called into question, otherwise the Coptic Church (Catholic as well as Orthodox) and the Syrian Church (which includes the Maronites) would have neither bishops nor priests, nor would they ever have had them. We have prepared a four-column comparison (refer Table 3: Four-column comparison of 1968 edition with Hippolytus text, Coptic and Maronite Rites) with, in order from left to right, Pope Paul VI's new consecratory prayer,[77] the Latin version of the Apostolic Tradition [i.e., "of Hippolytus"—Ed.],[78] the Coptic rite, and the Syrian rite. For the latter two texts we have used the Denzinger translation.[79] With the four prayers transcribed into the same language, the comparison is made easy." See Table 3 http://sspx.org/en/table-3-validity-new-episcopal-consecrations

The 1968 Rite of Episcopal Consecration: New ECR

The Traditional Rite of Episcopal Consecration: Traditional ECR

Prayer of Consecration of a Bishop in the Old: "THE CONSECRATION OF A BISHOP - It is truly worthy and just, right and profitable unto salvation that we should at all times and in all places give thanks unto Thee, O holy Lord, Father Almighty, Eternal God, honor of all dignities which serve unto Thy glory in sacred orders. To Thee O God, who, in the secret communings of familiar intercourse, giving instruction unto Moses Thy servant, concerning, among other branches of divine worship, the nature of sacerdotal vesture, didst order that Aaron, Thy chosen one, should be clad in mystic robes during thesacred functions, so that succeeding generations might be enlightened by the ex amples of their predecessors, lest the knowledge derived from Thy instructionshould be wanting in any age. Since, in deed, with the ancients, the very appearance of symbols would obtain reverence, and with us there would be the experience of the things themselves more certain than the mysteries of figures. For the adornment of our minds fulfils what was ex pressed by the outward vesture of that ancient priesthood, and now brightness of souls rather than splendor of raiment commends the pontifical glory unto us. Because even those things which then were sightly unto the eyes of the flesh, demanded rather that the eyes of the spirit should understand the things they signified. And therefore we beseech Thee, O Lord, give bountifully this grace to this Thy servant, whom Thou hast chosen to the ministry of the supreme priesthood, so that what things soever those vestments signify by the refulgence of gold, the splendor of jewels, and the variety of diversified works, these may shine forth in his character and his actions. Fill up in Thy priest the perfection of Thy ministry and sanctify with the dew of Thy heavenly ointment this Thy servant decked out with the or naments of all beauty."

Prayer of Consecration in the New: "Prayer of Consecration -26.  Next the principal consecrator, with his hands extended over the bishop-elect, sings the prayer of consecration or says it aloud: God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Father of mercies and God of all consolation, you dwell in heaven, yet look with compassion on all that is humble.  You know all things before they came to be; by your gracious word you have established the plan of your Church. From the beginning you chose the descendants of Abraham to be your holy nation.  You established rulers and priests, and did not leave your sanctuary without ministers to serve you.  From the creation of the world you have been pleased to be glorified by those whom you have chosen. So now pour out upon this chosen one the power that is from you, the governing Spirit whom you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, the Spirit given by him to his holy apostles, who founded the Church in every place to be your temple for the unceasing glory and praise of your name. Father, you know all hearts.  You have chosen your servant for the office of bishop.  May he be a shepherd to your holy flock, and a high priest blameless in your sight, ministering to you night and day; may he always gain the blessing of your favor and offer the gifts of your holy Church.  Through the Spirit who gives the grace of high priesthood grant him the power to forgive sins as you have commanded, to assign ministries as you have decreed, and to loose every bond by the authority which you gave to your apostles.  May he be pleasing to you by his gentleness and purity of heart, presenting a fragrant offering to you, through Jesus Christ, your Son, through whom glory and power and honor are yours with the Holy Spirit in your holy Church, now and for ever.  R.  Amen."

"Supreme Priesthood", "High Priesthood" etc are all references to the Episcopacy. Both rites are not the same (the new rite is like some conglomeration of a Romanized Eastern rite) but both rites are plainly valid and clearly designate what can only refer to Episcopal Power. Those who have claimed this rite is invalid claim it doesn't sufficiently designate the Episcopacy. But that seems to be mistaken.

Then, there are some other proofs that the new rite cannot be invalid, one of which is hinted at in Fr. Pierre Marie's article above. "For the 37 years (this was back in 2005 I guess) that have elapsed since this rite was promulgated, most of the Roman Rite bishops of the Catholic Church have been ordained with it. There is certainly not a single resident bishop (a bishop having the power of jurisdiction) who was ordained before 1968. Consequently, if the new rite is invalid, the Roman Church is deprived of a hierarchy, which would seem contrary to the promises of Christ ("the gates of hell shall not prevail against her")."

A Bishop is generally not Consecrated before 35 years of age. This is expressly provided for in the new Code of Canon Law (378 §1/4). The Bishop is also expected according to the same code to resign his office at age 75. (Can. 401 §1) Therefore, it simply could not have happened that an invalid rite has been in use for over 40 years, let alone 50+ now, otherwise the Church of Rome would have no valid episcopal lineage, which is impossible and prevented by indefectibility. The new rite is marginally valid, though validity is not enough.

[Xavier]

it's not fair to single out the FSSP

But we're going to do so anyway. 

I believe there were 12 Priests and 20 Seminarians at the FSSP's origin 30 years ago. So, they've had at least 405 seminarians since then, 287 of whom have been ordained Priests, and 272 of whom have been incardinated. Now, 405 seminarians in 30 years is about 13.5 per year, and if we take into account the rejection rate, as Gardener mentioned, is probably around 33%, it's not unlikely the average is about 40 seminarians per year. I think the FSSP as an order will do fine for itself. But how far is it helping those who would be attracted to Tradition come toward it? Are all the faithful around the world who wish to assist at the TLM being enabled to do so? They say they have 239 Mass locations. That's a fraction at best of all Mass locations where there would be a group of traditional faithful if only there were Priests to minister to them. Also, there are whole continents where the FSSP has no presence. I see that as a limitation.

SSPX is more worldwide Houses in 62 countries http://sspx.org/en/general-statistics-about-sspx The SSPX worldwide has at least (a little while ago) 590 Priests, 187 Seminarians, 103 Brothers, 170 Sisters, 78 Oblate Sisters. This is not about "bragging" or anything. It should be about having stable Mass locations on all continents and countries as far as possible imho. We criticize the Conciliar Church and we point out to declining vocations etc in mainstream seminaries and other legitimate problems, yet who can deny the "conciliar church" has dioceses and parishes in almost every country, state and city in the world? A universal Church needs at least the semblance of a universal presence imho.

I would really love for there to be more vocations promotion in schools etc. Tradition needs lot more in the next 20-30 years.

I'll take France as one example: In 2018, traditional Ordinations accounted for over 20% of all new Priests in France. https://onepeterfive.com/traditional-priests-account-for-20-of-2018-ordinations-in-france/ That's very good, we need the same in other countries. It's estimated traditional Priests will be around 50% of all Priests by 2038 in France. Such a thing will be necessary before we can expect Tradition to make inroads into more dioceses, to ultimately return to Rome etc. And much unity among Trad Priests will be necessary for that. Imho, if the focus was on ensuring that as many locations as reasonably possible have stable access to the TLM and sound doctrine, there would be less infighting.

[Miriam_M]

I'll take France as one example: In 2018, traditional Ordinations accounted for over 20% of all new Priests in France. https://onepeterfive.com/traditional-priests-account-for-20-of-2018-ordinations-in-france/ That's very good, we need the same in other countries. It's estimated traditional Priests will be around 50% of all Priests by 2038 in France. Such a thing will be necessary before we can expect Tradition to make inroads into more dioceses, to ultimately return to Rome etc. And much unity among Trad Priests will be necessary for that. Imho, if the focus was on ensuring that as many locations as reasonably possible have stable access to the TLM and sound doctrine, there would be less infighting.

I agree with that last paragraph of yours, although there is actually much less "infighting" than some would believe.  it tends to be exaggerated, because there's more unity than disunity in fact among trad apostolates, but of course any disunity within a vulnerable effort has a more pronounced effect than in a larger and older organization.

Overall, I agree that a critical mass is what's needed, and where I want to see it happen is in the U. S. and Western Europe together.   But those are just ideals and fantasies.  I am not hopeful that I will see it in my lifetime, given the political trends on both continents.

[Xavier]

Correction: Those stats were slightly outdated. https://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/sspx-to-gain-over-600-priests-this-summer-8853

So SSPX has already 600 Priests. And it rightly points out Tradition can be a solution for Priest shortage: http://sspx.org/en/tradition-solution-for-priestly-crisis The example of France is mentioned, "From denial to challenge
This year there were only 68 ordinations of diocesan priests throughout all of France and 52 ordinations of religious for a total of 120 new priests. It is predicted that there will be only 6000 priests in France in 5 years as compared to 15,000 today, because 10,000 of them are over 65 years of age, and 7000 are over 75 ... But the facts are always there, and the experiment of Tradition can still be made. But for that to happen we must make an energetic denial that this decline is our destiny, and there must be a will to make use of the treasures offered by the Tradition of 2000 years... Such is the challenge!" Amen. I love that can-do spirit. One of the many reasons I love the SSPX.

District Superior of France Fr. Benoit recently gave an interview, where he summarizes the path forward for Tradition there: https://fsspx.news/en/news-events/news/save-priesthood-%E2%80%93-interview-fr-beno%C3%AEt-de-jorna-pr%C3%A9sent-44117

Are there more faithful than 22 years ago?

More faithful and more children in our schools. It is a great expansion that was a pleasant surprise. 180 priests - the most we have ever had! (There were 100 of us 25 years ago).

Does the Society have many missionary priests outside of France?

Too many! At least 60. I would prefer to have them in France. We have a cruel lack of priests in our schools. This need is even greater than the need for the ministry ...

What do you see as the role of the Society today?

I see it taking the role of a bow-spur (lead ship in a fleet) in the conquest for Christ the King, that is to say, the Kingdom of Grace. The Society is a sort of flagship with small parallel ships that once in a while would like to outflank it on the right or the left. But the Society holds its position as a bow-spur, and the Ecclesia Dei communities and even the French bishops are aware of this, even though they do not say so. I know of some who remain attentive and even have a certain amount of good will. I have met with some and am going to meet with more. They receive us amiably, and some of them are not uninterested by the fact that, in certain conditions, we can present a solution to fill the diocese's churches for example. The mayors who are responsible for these churches do not always want to keep up empty buildings. But the bishops do not necessarily wish to decommission them. We can be a solution. Some are considering this, and for us, this opens up future prospects.

What are your goals as District Superior of France?

To show more clearly our doctrinal and practical coherency, in particular by starting a doctrinal review that could interest priests, faithful, and also academics. Stay tuned!

I agree with that last paragraph of yours, although there is actually much less "infighting" than some would believe.  it tends to be exaggerated, because there's more unity than disunity in fact among trad apostolates, but of course any disunity within a vulnerable effort has a more pronounced effect than in a larger and older organization.

Yes. It's simple really to have unity and peace if we want it. Let other groups continue to do the good they're doing and each individually should strive to do that particular good he is called to. In fact, the same principle applies to every Christian life, even the laity. Priests in particular should be careful to build up, not tear down.

I disagree with FSSP Priests who tell people not to go to SSPX. And if there are any SSPX Priests who do the same (I think there are very few these days, though, historically, there have been), they really should cut it out too, for the common good of Tradition. If necessary, they could get together and discuss that they will work together in future, and not against each other or those on the "other side". That will especially be so after Divine Mercy Sunday this year, when the SSPX is expected to receive 2 new Bishops with full Papal Approval.

Overall, I agree that a critical mass is what's needed, and where I want to see it happen is in the U. S. and Western Europe together.

But not in Africa, Asia and Australia? Feel free to clarify, but I would personally disagree with that if so. Much more intense vocation promotion efforts are necessary, right from the orphanages, schools, colleges and other works the Society already runs on so many different continents. Catholic Families also can encourage children to discern possible vocations from a young age. There are around 200 countries in the world. Each traditional order should aim to have a critical mass of around 10,000 Priests with about 50 Priests per country by 2050 latest. If the right steps are taken now, that's certainly possible. Without that, Restoration will - mildly - be very difficult.

[Stu Cool]

We give money to the ICKSP, FSSP, SSPX, and the diocesan TLMs.  I say support them all.

[Habitual_Ritual]

who cares if the FSSP are taking jabs at the SSPX. There is much to criticize(validly).

No, there isn't. And everyone knows the FSSP is just a grudging sop to prevent defection by the more traditionally minded who cannot accept the awful reality of the phaggy club known as the Novus Ordo church (small c).

No SSPX = No FSSP

[Maximilian]

I think the FSSP as an order will do fine for itself. But how far is it helping those who would be attracted to Tradition come toward it?

Good question, but the real question is, "What would have happened if Tradition has presented a united front for the past 40 years?" What possible developments might have happened if there had not been splits and divisions?

The breakaway of the FSSP was the biggest, but the question applies just as much to Bishop (then Father) Williamson's expulsion of "The Nine" a few years earlier. And other similar examples.