For the wrong reasons.
The various Amish, Hutterites, and Mennonites' big problem is their techno-phobia. Essentially they are against technology and went into internal exile separating themselves from tech. The problem is blazingly obvious: Where do you draw the line? Why can you use a wheel? Iron tools? Hand powered or horse powered machines? And so I ignored them, even though what they did will have good results for them after the collapse.
Now make a change to the philosophy: We are on a socialist train that will go off a cliff. Where currently the socialist programs in the government are close to the tax receipts, and will soon exceed tax receipts. And socialism, because it is socialism, will eventually crash and burn. Therefore if you rely on a society run by the tenets of statist culture, you will go down with them. Even the money you make and save will become worthless. Therefore the rational move is to go into internal exile and separate yourself from the statists to minimalize the fall out on your people.
This has a few advantages. First it's true. Second, you can use any tech you want. Hoards of foreigners emerge from the rotting, destroyed cities in search of loot? You have guns to defend yourself.
Want electricity? Set up a solar and wind farm.
If you have a natural gas wells available, use them. Coal mine? Use it.
It's probably too late at this point, but the establishment of Trad Catholics in internal exile, who even use their own money would lesson the damage of what is fixin to happen.
You can actually generate a fair amount of energy on solar, provided if the panels are set up correctly. And the startup costs are not too bad for the inverters, batteries, and panels. It might be hard in the winter but you can get used to using less electricity and there are generators. We actually own a few generators and got a brand-name one for cheap from an auction.
I really can't imagine not relying on technology, it increases productivity and you have time to do other things. For example, we didn't have hot water a few years ago and the constant boiling the water just to wash things was so time-consuming, especially in the winter. Same with hand-washing clothing though it does have an advantage if the washer is being used and I can multi-task ;D
As for wind power, we haven't had much luck even though it gets pretty windy here. I think you need huge windmills though.
I do like some things about the Anabaptist people, like them not liking the medical system. I don't like hospitals and would rather treat most things at home than step foot in one, but then again, the Canadian medical system is pretty bad. But, with technology, I could pay a bit to get an online appointment and prescription without driving a few hours and waiting so long.
The Amish aren't so against technology if it will make them money. Handmade furniture? Think power tools run on generators instead.
QuoteYou can actually generate a fair amount of energy on solar,
In the US, solar works pretty well. I've experimented with it. The main hurdle is batteries.
However in summer you can run AC during the hot day no problem, which would help a lot.
Unless you want to put out big bucks, you can't replace grid power with solar (especially at night) and maintain the same standard of living. Batteries are the big problem.
However having AC during the day, and 12V DC LED lighting at night makes life easier. Also a solar powered well pump.
Don't rush to construe anything bitterly as exile. They're right in creating strong and stable small-scale communities. Actions should be founded on love, not rejection and self-exile.
When I say internal exile, I'm talking about Trad communities, which I've called Trad Havens. Individual survivalism is not a viable option.
But these communities can't depend on a socialist society to provide for their needs, nor use socialist usury money that will become worthless. Thus it is an internal exile where the community separates itself.
Trad communities struggle to thrive when the power grid is up and government are still giving handouts and repairing roads. I think it would be gamble to assume they would be better in a collapse.
In the 1990s in Russia church groups did not survive and thrive. Villains did. The mafia.
Same was true under communism.
I would muck in with my immediate neighbours. One of my best friends here is a former drug smuggler who did nearly a decade in jail. He is an extremely nice guy, loves my kids to bits, happily married and absolutely brilliant at building, fixing, repairing pretty much anything. The only things he cannot do are computers and electronics.
That's the kind of person you want in a system collapse. Loyal and a complete maniac who will burn your enemies alive and smile while he is doing it.
Study any breakdown and where you want to be is in a gang ready to do violence.
Pikeys will do a lot better than Amish. A lot better.
It's harmful to think in these bitter terms at all. It bespeaks traditionalist defeatism. We need to focus on the health and strength of local community, on our witness and love of God, not on "exile" and "separation."
It was harmful for the Spanish to retreat and form a relatively small community. They should have welcomed in their new moslem overlords and worked with them instead of reestablishing Catholic Spain and conducting the Reconquista.
The Former West is destroyed. The proper mindset is re-establishing the West. There may be differing opinions on what "re-establishing" entails, that's fine. But the idea that we are going to save this dumpster fire, that is actively persecuting Christ and His Church, is absurd.
Furthermore challenges like the collapse of money, the shutdown of services, mass unemployment, rise of crime, and evading Big Brother tracking have to be addressed.
QuoteTrad communities struggle to thrive when the power grid is up and government are still giving handouts and repairing roads. I think it would be gamble to assume they would be better in a collapse.
In the 1990s in Russia church groups did not survive and thrive. Villains did. The mafia.
Valid points, and like I said we're probably too late to address this.
However my model is the former Yugoslavia. Local communities survived.
Quote from: james03 on December 06, 2023, 11:16:35 AMQuoteYou can actually generate a fair amount of energy on solar,
In the US, solar works pretty well. I've experimented with it. The main hurdle is batteries.
However in summer you can run AC during the hot day no problem, which would help a lot.
Unless you want to put out big bucks, you can't replace grid power with solar (especially at night) and maintain the same standard of living. Batteries are the big problem.
However having AC during the day, and 12V DC LED lighting at night makes life easier. Also a solar powered well pump.
Yes, you'd have to do the laundry, shower, use oven, and whatever during the day when it's sunny, it's a major adjustment and lifestyle change. We actually switched from lead to lithium batteries (cost $3k each) and it's a game-changer since they can hold more energy. But, we have to make sure the lithiums don't drop too low and basically need to be at full capacity for them to last long and be efficient (like a phone battery).
Looks like you are the expert on this.
Poverty and simplicity are virtues.
I'm glad all this technology will end soon.
Think what will happen.
As long as people live according to God's will and do not follow false prophets.
QuoteI'm glad all this technology will end soon.
In one area, fertilizer, without technology probably half the world's population will starve to death. Just going to "green fertilizer" using legumes cuts food production in half, because every other year you have to plow in your legume crop.
The big problem is potassium and phosphorous. For Trad Haven, you'd have to site near a timber stand, heat with wood, and use wood ash for fertilizer. That will probably work until all the trees are gone. Enough time to get you into the rebuilding phase.
Quote from: james03 on December 06, 2023, 01:17:17 PMHowever my model is the former Yugoslavia. Local communities survived.
What's your guess as to why local communities survived?
Mine is that they're so insular and the racial hatred (even though they're the same race) they have is so profound, that no one big group could emerge.
Croats, Slovenes, Montenegrins, Serbs, Bulgarians, Kosovo, Bosniaks, etc. - they all hate each other. Too many parties in one group all with relatively equal power who hate each other tremendously. When there's no, one top gun, those individual communities are bound to survive, more or less.
I doubt people have the skills or knowledge to survive much of anything if society experienced major collapse.
Technological solutions like solar panels are great but if the supply chain is gone, can they be replaced? Somebody needs to know how to use a multi-meter and circuit board repair kit because those panels become irreplaceable treasures in rough times. Eventually the panels die anyway. If replacement panels are not available, what is the fallback option? Convenience and comfort are out the window at this stage. Basic commodities like shelter, heat, food and water become the new trend.
Three heat sources that are criminally underutilized are passive solar, geothermal and mass rocket heaters. Combined solar and geothermal greenhouses can be used for year-round gardening even in the northern parts of the USA. These heat sources can be deployed with access to minimal infrastructure. Properly designed homes that capture/deflect the sun's energy would also save a bundle in heating/cooling costs.
If a metal file is the hardest steel in the toolbox, how did they make the first file?
The center of the pre-industrial economy was the blacksmith and without the blacksmith, there's no tool lathe. Without the tool lathe, there's no industrial age.
A blacksmith can make files too.
I don't recommend people toss their welders and pickup a hammer instead. But it is a good idea for metalworkers to spend a week learning how to build and operate a basic forge (cheap and easy) and also learn how to make charcoal.
If oil and/or chemical fertilizers are taken away, forget conventional mono-culture farming techniques. Animals would have to be integrated back into the farm (includes aquaponics) and/or people would have to relearn how to use humanure safely. Apparently JADAM has been successful in Korea but I don't know enough about it to deploy the system with confidence in my own garden.
For smaller gardens, there's always Back to Eden style gardening. It's ideal for those who want supplemental food with minimal labor input.
The point of all this? If the ideal trad haven is out of reach, there's nothing to stop people from learning one new skill at a time. The best skills to pick are the ones that synergize with existing skills, can provide immediate utility and also provide a foundational skill for rebuilding infrastructure.
Quote from: Akavit on December 06, 2023, 08:35:44 PMThree heat sources that are criminally underutilized are passive solar, geothermal and mass rocket heaters.
All 3 of these were heavily utilized in the pre-industrial age.
1. Russian houses were basically one big thermal mass to absorb the heat from the stove.
2. The Japanese relied heavily on geothermal like hot springs.
3. Passive solar was used everywhere and makes more sense than photovoltaics.
Quote from: james03 on December 06, 2023, 04:08:41 PMQuoteI'm glad all this technology will end soon.
Enough time to get you into the rebuilding phase.
World War III will soon break out, and later famine and plague.
After this, the Antichrist will tempt people with food, drinking water, clothes, etc.
This is probably the rebuilding phase you are talking about when someone renounces the Lord Jesus and will bow to the Antichrist.
Gospel according to St. Matthew [6:25-34].
Quote from: Truthseeker on December 07, 2023, 03:55:14 AMQuote from: james03 on December 06, 2023, 04:08:41 PMQuoteI'm glad all this technology will end soon.
Enough time to get you into the rebuilding phase.
World War III will soon break out, and later famine and plague.
I have been hearing that message for 50 years. Consider me skeptical.
(https://www.toonpool.com/user/589/files/the_end_is_nigh_3360015.jpg)
QuoteWhat's your guess as to why local communities survived?
I read some articles from a dude that was part of it. People with large extended families survived. It's as basic as security. Having someone posted while you all cook and eat your potato stew. The UN or NATO used to para-drop food, so you send out some men to the drop site, and you get your food. And members of the family will have friends, and thus networks are established. And yes it is based on nation. The Croats trusted each other, the Bosnians and Serbs the same. Which leads to the militias that can protect the local community.
QuoteTechnological solutions like solar panels are great but if the supply chain is gone, can they be replaced?
The goal is to survive until civilization is reestablished. The West is not prosperous because magic dirt or "exploitation". The West is prosperous because of what it believes and the pillars it stands on. Therefore after the Former West collapses and the West can be reestablished, things will bounce back quickly.
Solar panels supposedly last for 20 years. Car batteries last about 3-5 years. AGMs last longer. I'm guessing a lithium battery will last 10. Having solar doesn't give you civilization, it just makes surviving easier.
QuoteIf oil and/or chemical fertilizers are taken away, forget conventional mono-culture farming techniques. Animals would have to be integrated back into the farm (includes aquaponics) and/or people would have to relearn how to use humanure safely. Apparently JADAM has been successful in Korea but I don't know enough about it to deploy the system with confidence in my own garden.
"Sustainable" agriculture is not sustainable with a large population. It merely slows the depletion of nutrients by recycling poop and piss. Where is the fish getting nitrogen to make protein in aquaponics? The fish food. Which contains the fertilized mono-crop derived soy protein. However the fish waste is not wasted, but supplies nutrients to the plant roots.
Take away mono-crops like corn and bean and fertilizer, and you drastically reduce protein production. Even if you have pastures with clover, vetch, and alfalfa, it still takes a lot longer to finish beef on pasture than a feed lot. Which means meat production drops. And you still have problems from potassium and phosphorous depletion.
Quote from: clau clau on December 07, 2023, 06:25:39 AMQuote from: Truthseeker on December 07, 2023, 03:55:14 AMQuote from: james03 on December 06, 2023, 04:08:41 PMQuoteI'm glad all this technology will end soon.
Enough time to get you into the rebuilding phase.
World War III will soon break out, and later famine and plague.
I have been hearing that message for 50 years.
The situation like the current one has never happened before.
This is clear to those who are aware.
Quote from: Truthseeker on December 07, 2023, 11:07:16 AMQuote from: clau clau on December 07, 2023, 06:25:39 AMQuote from: Truthseeker on December 07, 2023, 03:55:14 AMQuote from: james03 on December 06, 2023, 04:08:41 PMQuoteI'm glad all this technology will end soon.
Enough time to get you into the rebuilding phase.
World War III will soon break out, and later famine and plague.
I have been hearing that message for 50 years.
The situation like the current one has never happened before.
This is clear to those who are aware.
It's all the same. It really is.
I guarantee you folks in the Middle Ages were saying that the Islam invasions were the coming of the Antichrist and that the end was nigh.
Until proven wrong you guys will never be right (bit of a paradox but oh well) 'cause there have been naysayers and doomsday declarers since time immemorial. 😅
Quote from: Melkor on December 07, 2023, 11:31:53 AMQuote from: Truthseeker on December 07, 2023, 11:07:16 AMQuote from: clau clau on December 07, 2023, 06:25:39 AMQuote from: Truthseeker on December 07, 2023, 03:55:14 AMQuote from: james03 on December 06, 2023, 04:08:41 PMQuoteI'm glad all this technology will end soon.
Enough time to get you into the rebuilding phase.
World War III will soon break out, and later famine and plague.
I have been hearing that message for 50 years.
The situation like the current one has never happened before.
This is clear to those who are aware.
It's all the same. It really is.
I guarantee you folks in the Middle Ages were saying that the Islam invasions were the coming of the Antichrist and that the end was nigh.
Until proven wrong you guys will never be right (bit of a paradox but oh well) 'cause there have been naysayers and doomsday declarers since time immemorial. 😅
You're not wrong and I distinctly remember being on SD in 2008 during the market crash and we were all "this is it!"
BUT
To be fair, when have you EVER seen things at the level we're at now?
- An anti-Pope in Rome (And quite unlike every other anti-Pope in history)
- Copious amount of high-ranking clerics (ie. Bishops) promoting things that we would have hung people for 100 years ago
- Church attendance imploding
- Multiple regional wars with multiple hot spots ready to explode
- Mass lockdowns of nations
- Forced vaccinations
- Getting thrown in prison for calling someone who cuts their genitalia off mentally unhinged
- Faggot "Catholics" running multi-million dollar apostolates for years...let alone laymen running apostolates
Name me a period in history with all of the above and I'll livestream me eating my hat on YouTube. Of course, in 10 years things could be much worse, and we'll look back on now and go, "Lol, I can't believe I thought that was it!"
Yes, many Trads have been crying wolf for years. There's no doubt, I've done as much. That doesn't discredit the facts of our age, though.
Just because Trads are quick to cry wolf doesn't mean it isn't coming. We should still look to the signs of our times and discern accordingly.
Yeah, no one knows if the anti-Christ is coming until the two prophets (Desert Hermit Greg, the Misanthrope and Desert Hermit James, the Greater Misanthrope) announce it. When you see Greg rub dung on his head, rolling around the steps of the EU building shouting, "I'm the EU, I'm the EU" know that the end is nye. And it will be confirmed when Desert Hermit James marries a smoking hot Ukrainian home wrecking hussie, drags her to the Vatican and yells, "This is the Novus Ordo!".
So it might not happen. However really bad times are coming. The US debt guarantees it. 30's style depression at the bare minimum. And even though the anti-Christ didn't come during the moslem head hunting invasion of Spain, it really sucked.
Quote from: Melkor on December 07, 2023, 11:31:53 AMIt's all the same. It really is.
I guarantee you folks in the Middle Ages were saying that the Islam invasions were the coming of the Antichrist and that the end was nigh.
Until proven wrong you guys will never be right (bit of a paradox but oh well) 'cause there have been naysayers and doomsday declarers since time immemorial. 😅
But it's in the Creed that Christ will come again and Scripture explains the circumstances. It's hardly a sin to be aware of this and a bit of over-enthusiastic interpretation in the past doesn't alter what the Creed and Scripture tell us. The "doomsayers" will be right one day and people will still be insisting that because they got it wrong before, they must be wrong now.
We know it's all going to end and we've been told what to expect. I'm about 95% sure that the end is close because the current situation is entirely unlike anything that has happened in the past. All the signs are there.
For the remaining 5%, where there's hope for survival and rebuilding, strong groups of armed people, usually extended family, seem to be the answer. I read the account by the guy caught up in the siege of Sarajevo that James refers to.
Does anyone know what the ins and outs are of dealing with the black market?
Quote from: LausTibiChriste on December 07, 2023, 11:44:53 AMQuote from: Melkor on December 07, 2023, 11:31:53 AMQuote from: Truthseeker on December 07, 2023, 11:07:16 AMQuote from: clau clau on December 07, 2023, 06:25:39 AMQuote from: Truthseeker on December 07, 2023, 03:55:14 AMQuote from: james03 on December 06, 2023, 04:08:41 PMQuoteI'm glad all this technology will end soon.
Enough time to get you into the rebuilding phase.
World War III will soon break out, and later famine and plague.
I have been hearing that message for 50 years.
The situation like the current one has never happened before.
This is clear to those who are aware.
It's all the same. It really is.
I guarantee you folks in the Middle Ages were saying that the Islam invasions were the coming of the Antichrist and that the end was nigh.
Until proven wrong you guys will never be right (bit of a paradox but oh well) 'cause there have been naysayers and doomsday declarers since time immemorial. 😅
You're not wrong and I distinctly remember being on SD in 2008 during the market crash and we were all "this is it!"
BUT
To be fair, when have you EVER seen things at the level we're at now?
- An anti-Pope in Rome (And quite unlike every other anti-Pope in history)
- Copious amount of high-ranking clerics (ie. Bishops) promoting things that we would have hung people for 100 years ago
- Church attendance imploding
- Multiple regional wars with multiple hot spots ready to explode
- Mass lockdowns of nations
- Forced vaccinations
- Getting thrown in prison for calling someone who cuts their genitalia off mentally unhinged
- Faggot "Catholics" running multi-million dollar apostolates for years...let alone laymen running apostolates
Name me a period in history with all of the above and I'll livestream me eating my hat on YouTube. Of course, in 10 years things could be much worse, and we'll look back on now and go, "Lol, I can't believe I thought that was it!"
Yes, many Trads have been crying wolf for years. There's no doubt, I've done as much. That doesn't discredit the facts of our age, though.
Just because Trads are quick to cry wolf doesn't mean it isn't coming. We should still look to the signs of our times and discern accordingly.
Yeah fair points man. I'm just a lil' sick of this constant apocalypse-mongering. Maybe the rest of y'all are cynic old folks; but Melkor is young and has dreams. I'm also woefully weak so I pray the end times comes a little later, y'know?
Quote from: james03 on December 07, 2023, 11:45:08 AMYeah, no one knows if the anti-Christ is coming until the two prophets (Desert Hermit Greg, the Misanthrope and Desert Hermit James, the Greater Misanthrope) announce it. When you see Greg rub dung on his head, rolling around the steps of the EU building shouting, "I'm the EU, I'm the EU" know that the end is nye. And it will be confirmed when Desert Hermit James marries a smoking hot Ukrainian home wrecking hussie, drags her to the Vatican and yells, "This is the Novus Ordo!".
So it might not happen. However really bad times are coming. The US debt guarantees it. 30's style depression at the bare minimum. And even though the anti-Christ didn't come during the moslem head hunting invasion of Spain, it really sucked.
Yeah it sucked but at least it gave men a chance get off their asses and fight and die for something worthwhile. Hell, gimme a man like El Cid or Fernando III to lead us and I'd sign up. This modern world is killing our manhood.
Brother James, be sure to drop me a line if you hear it through the grapevine. Novice Misanthrope Melkor has the itch in his right hand to clang the
Annoyingly Small Bell and grin like the mad fool he is as the Great comet descends upon the faggots and baby-killers.
I have always admired the detachment of the Amish from technology, especially the internet. Life without the internet, in a society where you don't need it to function--doesn't that sound wonderful?! Sure, you miss out on news and social media and fora like this, for example, but none of that is necessary for a good life.
Quote from: james03 on December 06, 2023, 09:14:27 AMIt's probably too late at this point, but the establishment of Trad Catholics in internal exile, who even use their own money would lesson the damage of what is fixin to happen.
Imagine that: Maybe 50 families gathered in an "internal exile" community, centered around the Traditional Liturgy. As was mentioned, you can have technology (cars, farming machinery, computers) and still make it work just fine. That civil freedom would be valuable. Me and my trad friends discuss this from time to time.
QuoteBrother James, be sure to drop me a line if you hear it through the grapevine. Novice Misanthrope Melkor has the itch in his right hand to clang the Annoyingly Small Bell and grin like the mad fool he is as the Great comet descends upon the faggots and baby-killers.
Spoken like a True Brother of the Annoying Cowbell, Brother Melkor. Maybe Brother Greg will allow you to carry the sack of dung when he travels to Brussels.
QuoteImagine that: Maybe 50 families gathered in an "internal exile" community, centered around the Traditional Liturgy. As was mentioned, you can have technology (cars, farming machinery, computers) and still make it work just fine. That civil freedom would be valuable. Me and my trad friends discuss this from time to time.
A big weakness is local currency. The Populist Left actually has some good material on the "Buy Local" movement on how to LEGALLY set up a system with local script and local tokens. The key is to only grow it 2% per year, and donate the increase to the local chapel. You'd start by using it at a local farmers market. As a use for it gets established, people might start taking part of their pay in script. You might pay some kids in script to stack hay bales. The important thing is to establish it as useful.
And as the dollar inflates, you just keep upping the exchange rate. As dollar devaluation becomes more-and-more obvious, adoption of the Local Currency will spread. Once Local Currency is up and running, a currency collapse in the US can be mostly ignored (except the complete meltdown and Mad Max violence in the cities.)
If anyone tries this, make sure to do it LEGALLY, and get an attorney to review the set up.
Quote from: Melkor on December 07, 2023, 12:09:21 PMI'm just a lil' sick of this constant apocalypse-mongering. Maybe the rest of y'all are cynic old folks; but Melkor is young and has dreams. I'm also woefully weak so I pray the end times comes a little later, y'know?
You are carnal, not spiritual.
You should seek the Truth - the true Catholic Church.
If you let go, this false one will prevent you from being saved, and if you are aware of his heresy, you will condemn yourself. Beware of false prophets.
Your home should be heaven, not this world, and there you should direct your thoughts and store up treasures (good deeds regarding the soul and those regarding the body).
You should pray more often and intensely, fast and give alms. This should help you.
You should also read the Lives of the Martyrs from a reliable source.
Epistle of St. Jacob the Apostle [4:3-10].
As Clau's comic pithily showed, it is simply not possible for a young man to live out a Catholic life with the operative assumption that everything is definitely about to collapse and even the world is about to end. Until that is before his very eyes in material fact, he must wake up each morning and set to work as though life goes on and wonderful things are possible with God. It is immensely destructive to do otherwise, no matter the amount of prayer.
Quote from: Severinus on December 07, 2023, 03:32:36 PMAs Clau's comic pithily showed, it is simply not possible for a young man to live out a Catholic life with the operative assumption that everything is definitely about to collapse and even the world is about to end. Until that is before his very eyes in material fact, he must wake up each morning and set to work as though life goes on and wonderful things are possible with God. It is immensely destructive to do otherwise, no matter the amount of prayer.
He should not think about what he will suffer, but act with zeal for the glory of God according to His will every day as if it were his last (he does not know when he will die). But he should fear Lord God, remember death and the Last Judgment, the reward and punishment of hell.
Quote from: james03 on December 07, 2023, 11:45:08 AMSo it might not happen. However really bad times are coming. The US debt guarantees it. 30's style depression at the bare minimum. And even though the anti-Christ didn't come during the moslem head hunting invasion of Spain, it really sucked.
Jack Hylton - Happy Days Are Here Again (1930)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW-0kbIcf1E
1930's eh. Perhaps we will get another Laurel and Hardy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rgux8axYfr8
Quote from: Truthseeker on December 07, 2023, 03:57:03 PMQuote from: Severinus on December 07, 2023, 03:32:36 PMAs Clau's comic pithily showed, it is simply not possible for a young man to live out a Catholic life with the operative assumption that everything is definitely about to collapse and even the world is about to end. Until that is before his very eyes in material fact, he must wake up each morning and set to work as though life goes on and wonderful things are possible with God. It is immensely destructive to do otherwise, no matter the amount of prayer.
He should not think about what he will suffer, but act with zeal for the glory of God according to His will every day as if it were his last (he does not know when he will die). But he should fear Lord God, remember death and the Last Judgment, the reward and punishment of hell.
You're missing a small but important distinction between being prepared to die and operatively believing you're about to die and/or total social collapse and the end of the world are at hand. The former is necessary, the latter is destructive for a young man, who should have a different operative belief until the end is before his eyes.
Quote from: james03 on December 07, 2023, 09:49:57 AMTherefore after the Former West collapses and the West can be reestablished, things will bounce back quickly.
Depends upon how many people have the right skills. If we lose the ability to produce semi-conductors and chips, other industries would need to be retooled with mechanical automation or they will eventually go down. Most of the people who used to do that work are dead. This is why I advocate that people practice the basics of various crafts then purchase and store books on those topics. Rediscovering lost knowledge can take centuries. Mastering a new craft can be done in a few years if the core knowledge is at ones fingertips.
One of my woodworking mentors needed many years to learn how to steam-bend wood because the techniques commonly used before WWII were lost after they were discarded from industrial use. He might have failed if he hadn't discovered a single publication that provided him with the last clue needed to redevelop the process. I learned how to do it in one day because he told me how to do it.
Quote from: james03 on December 07, 2023, 09:49:57 AM...I'm guessing a lithium battery will last 10.
Lithium ion batteries have a charge/discharge lifespan. If they aren't used, they could last decades. Constant, heavy use will wear them out quickly.
Quote from: james03 on December 07, 2023, 09:57:13 AM"Sustainable" agriculture is not sustainable with a large population. It merely slows the depletion of nutrients by recycling poop and piss. Where is the fish getting nitrogen to make protein in aquaponics? The fish food. Which contains the fertilized mono-crop derived soy protein. However the fish waste is not wasted, but supplies nutrients to the plant roots.
Depletion of nutrients isn't the problem. Properly managed food plots can increase in fertility over time. It isn't necessary to plow in a legume crop to get the nitrogen boost since the nitrogen is in the roots. Pick the beans then plow or chop and drop and the nitrogen gets released as the roots die off.
The big problems are the amount of time it takes to prep new plots and the amount of manpower it takes to make it happen. Shifting that many people into food production would probably destroy the rest of the economy and shut down a large number of factories.
But speculation about superiority of farming methods is a moot issue if everyone's best buddy Schwab says, "No fertilizer for you!" Trying to stick with modern farming methods without fertilizer would result in more deaths than switching to alternatives.
Speaking of Schwab, bug farming is a viable method of turning kitchen scraps into high protein food which can be fed to fish or poultry.
Quote from: Maximilian on December 06, 2023, 08:51:14 PM3. Passive solar was used everywhere and makes more sense than photovoltaics.
Passive solar is unbelievably powerful. Last year I put up a quick and dirty panel consisting of black and greenhouse plastic over a 20'x16' garage door. Even with just a single layer of polyethylene plastic, the temperature between the garage door and the plastic would exceed 130 degrees (measured 4' from the ground) on a sunny, midwinter day if we didn't open the door to let the heat escape into the building. Double-wall polycarbonate should be even better.
Now I just have to figure out how to design something that is easy to put up and take down every year then build one for every overhead door in the building. This sort of thing is easy to do when erecting new construction. It's much harder as a retrofit.
Quote from: Severinus on December 07, 2023, 04:21:46 PMQuote from: Truthseeker on December 07, 2023, 03:57:03 PMQuote from: Severinus on December 07, 2023, 03:32:36 PMAs Clau's comic pithily showed, it is simply not possible for a young man to live out a Catholic life with the operative assumption that everything is definitely about to collapse and even the world is about to end. Until that is before his very eyes in material fact, he must wake up each morning and set to work as though life goes on and wonderful things are possible with God. It is immensely destructive to do otherwise, no matter the amount of prayer.
He should not think about what he will suffer, but act with zeal for the glory of God according to His will every day as if it were his last (he does not know when he will die). But he should fear Lord God, remember death and the Last Judgment, the reward and punishment of hell.
You're missing a small but important distinction between being prepared to die and operatively believing you're about to die and/or total social collapse and the end of the world are at hand. The former is necessary, the latter is destructive for a young man, who should have a different operative belief until the end is before his eyes.
Didn't Noah, when warning people about the Flood, warn young people for their crimes ?
Were no young people in front of Noah when he was warning ?
2 Epistle of St Peter the Apostle [2:5]
QuoteDepletion of nutrients isn't the problem. Properly managed food plots can increase in fertility over time. It isn't necessary to plow in a legume crop to get the nitrogen boost since the nitrogen is in the roots.
I stipulate that the ag we are discussing is efficient and beneficial. For a small Catholic community getting self-sufficient in food, it is very beneficial.
There's a difference between nutrients and fertility. Potassium and Phosporous can't increase over time unless you add them. In nature I suspect this is done by volcanic plumes fertilizing the rain. Another possibility are trees with deep roots accessing these minerals. When they die, the wood rots and releases the minerals. Annual flooding in riverine areas also brings in minerals that might have washed down from mountains.
If you are in the plains, you'll deplete the soil eventually. A stop gap measure would be to collect wood ash and use that for fertilizer. That would get you through until civilization is reestablished.
As far as crop rotation, nitrogen = protein. So if you harvest beans, you are removing the nitrogen the soy plant produced. Every cell has protein in it, so plowing in the soy plant will add some nitrogen. But compare a harvested soy plant to a fully grown cereal plant that still has the grain. Obviously the cereal plant has a lot more nitrogen (concentrated in wheat and corn gluten). It's doable, but you would have to grow 2-3 years of soy and then rotate in a cereal grain to stay in nitrogen balance. However you'll lose phosphorous and potassium every time you harvest.
You could establish pastures with alfalfa, vetch, and clover, and then raise cattle on them. Add some wood ash from time to time.
For a Trad Haven, such methods would be very beneficial. They don't work at large scale.
Quote from: james03 on December 09, 2023, 11:52:25 AMQuoteDepletion of nutrients isn't the problem. Properly managed food plots can increase in fertility over time. It isn't necessary to plow in a legume crop to get the nitrogen boost since the nitrogen is in the roots.
I stipulate that the ag we are discussing is efficient and beneficial. For a small Catholic community getting self-sufficient in food, it is very beneficial.
There's a difference between nutrients and fertility. Potassium and Phosporous can't increase over time unless you add them. In nature I suspect this is done by volcanic plumes fertilizing the rain. Another possibility are trees with deep roots accessing these minerals. When they die, the wood rots and releases the minerals. Annual flooding in riverine areas also brings in minerals that might have washed down from mountains.
If you are in the plains, you'll deplete the soil eventually. A stop gap measure would be to collect wood ash and use that for fertilizer. That would get you through until civilization is reestablished.
As far as crop rotation, nitrogen = protein. So if you harvest beans, you are removing the nitrogen the soy plant produced. Every cell has protein in it, so plowing in the soy plant will add some nitrogen. But compare a harvested soy plant to a fully grown cereal plant that still has the grain. Obviously the cereal plant has a lot more nitrogen (concentrated in wheat and corn gluten). It's doable, but you would have to grow 2-3 years of soy and then rotate in a cereal grain to stay in nitrogen balance. However you'll lose phosphorous and potassium every time you harvest.
You could establish pastures with alfalfa, vetch, and clover, and then raise cattle on them. Add some wood ash from time to time.
For a Trad Haven, such methods would be very beneficial. They don't work at large scale.
I believe that MIRG solves these problems pretty nicely. It has the added benefits of producing a lot of meat and less frankenstein monoculture row crop.
Cattle and cereal grains are two different forms of food production. Raising cattle is fine, and switching a Trad Haven to the carnivore diet would be healthy, however it doesn't scale for large populations, unless you finish with grain. If you don't, you'll cut your production in half for grass finished beef. It's healthier for you, but it produces less. Which is why you pay more for it.
Same thing with farm eggs vs. factory eggs, or pasture raised broilers vs. factory chicken. I love farm eggs, but the volume is a lot lower.
Quote from: james03 on December 09, 2023, 11:52:25 AMPotassium and Phosporous can't increase over time unless you add them. In nature I suspect this is done by volcanic plumes fertilizing the rain. Another possibility are trees with deep roots accessing these minerals. When they die, the wood rots and releases the minerals. Annual flooding in riverine areas also brings in minerals that might have washed down from mountains.
If you are in the plains, you'll deplete the soil eventually. A stop gap measure would be to collect wood ash and use that for fertilizer. That would get you through until civilization is reestablished.
I've done some reading on the topic of how minerals are distributed naturally. There are microbes that can break down rock and clay and release the minerals. Trees and other deep-rooted plants can pull up nutrients and over time, deposit those on the surface. Lightning creates nitrogen oxide which is carried to earth by rain. Legumes form a symbiotic relationship with rhizobia to pull nitrogen out of the air and store it in the roots. I'm sure there's a lot more than that going on but scientists have barely scratched the surface on this topic. Apparently mushrooms and other fungus also connect trees together and enable the flow of nutrients and water between trees and thus increase the reach of an individual tree.
The JADAM approach is based upon the theory that these microbes are super important which is why practitioners make their forest microbe solution and spray that onto their fields.
Since natural processes do renew the land, it's only necessary to slow the depletion enough to allow those processes to keep up and/or add whatever inputs are locally available (manure, humanure, wood chips/sawdust, leaves, rock dust, etc.). This may not be useful to commercial farms but it is sufficient for people that need to produce food for internal consumption and it can be done indefinitely.
All the people I've seen who managed intensive food production use animals of some sort. I suspect this is why wannabe world dictators have a vendetta against the use of livestock. They need control over both fertilizer and livestock before everyone can be forced to obtain rationed food from centralized factories.
Quote from: Severinus on December 07, 2023, 03:32:36 PMAs Clau's comic pithily showed, it is simply not possible for a young man to live out a Catholic life with the operative assumption that everything is definitely about to collapse and even the world is about to end. Until that is before his very eyes in material fact, he must wake up each morning and set to work as though life goes on and wonderful things are possible with God. It is immensely destructive to do otherwise, no matter the amount of prayer.
No-one want to live through a collapse or the end of the world, or live with the absolute certainty that disaster is definitely imminent.
But there's no "definitely" involved here. Some people, myself included, look around and see an entirely unprecedented situation which appears to fulfil certain Scriptural predictions. That's all.
Young men, like everyone else, would do worse than learn to live with that, just as we all have to learn to live with the fact that we might die at any time.
Memento mori ....
Quote from: awkward customer on December 11, 2023, 06:57:41 AMQuote from: Severinus on December 07, 2023, 03:32:36 PMAs Clau's comic pithily showed, it is simply not possible for a young man to live out a Catholic life with the operative assumption that everything is definitely about to collapse and even the world is about to end. Until that is before his very eyes in material fact, he must wake up each morning and set to work as though life goes on and wonderful things are possible with God. It is immensely destructive to do otherwise, no matter the amount of prayer.
No-one want to live through a collapse or the end of the world, or live with the absolute certainty that disaster is definitely imminent.
But there's no "definitely" involved here. Some people, myself included, look around and see an entirely unprecedented situation which appears to fulfil certain Scriptural predictions. That's all.
This is an inference with some evidence in its favor, it's not a fact. It's exceedingly dangerous to fixate on an inference about the imminent end of the world. It warps the faith by prescinding from God's plan (the details of which are unknown to us) and warps the practice of prudence by emphasizing low time preference, futility, and withdrawal. It's a fixation that regularly appears in the belief-sets of cults.
QuoteYoung men, like everyone else, would do worse than learn to live with that, just as we all have to learn to live with the fact that we might die at any time.
Memento mori ....
What I'm saying goes for everyone, but particularly for young men in their prime who are meant, by the vocation of their sex and life stage, to energetically seize the day.
Memento mori (not just for personal death but social collapse and the end times) is one thing, but you and Truthseeker are not understanding what I mean by operative assumption.
Quote from: Severinus on December 11, 2023, 10:39:17 AMQuote from: awkward customer on December 11, 2023, 06:57:41 AMQuote from: Severinus on December 07, 2023, 03:32:36 PMAs Clau's comic pithily showed, it is simply not possible for a young man to live out a Catholic life with the operative assumption that everything is definitely about to collapse and even the world is about to end. Until that is before his very eyes in material fact, he must wake up each morning and set to work as though life goes on and wonderful things are possible with God. It is immensely destructive to do otherwise, no matter the amount of prayer.
No-one want to live through a collapse or the end of the world, or live with the absolute certainty that disaster is definitely imminent.
But there's no "definitely" involved here. Some people, myself included, look around and see an entirely unprecedented situation which appears to fulfil certain Scriptural predictions. That's all.
This is an inference with some evidence in its favor, it's not a fact. It's exceedingly dangerous to fixate on an inference about the imminent end of the world. It warps the faith by prescinding from God's plan (the details of which are unknown to us) and warps the practice of prudence by emphasizing low time preference, futility, and withdrawal. It's a fixation that regularly appears in the belief-sets of cults.
I think you're over-reacting just a bit, especially with your accusations of cult-like behaviour. Every time you recite the Creed you are stating that Christ will come again. Scripture has indicated the conditions that will arise in the world before and during that time. Are you saying that people who think those conditions are being fulfilled now, shouldn't discuss this?
QuoteQuoteYoung men, like everyone else, would do worse than learn to live with that, just as we all have to learn to live with the fact that we might die at any time.
Memento mori ....
What I'm saying goes for everyone, but particularly for young men in their prime who are meant, by the vocation of their sex and life stage, to energetically seize the day.
Memento mori (not just for personal death but social collapse and the end times) is one thing, but you and Truthseeker are not understanding what I mean by operative assumption.
You're right. I don't understand what you mean by "operative assumption". Don't know about Truthseeker, though.
What is it?
I don't think the Amish were right. The Amish are only okay because the masses haven't turned on them, even Christ tells us to preach the Gospel to all the nations.
Forest fires grow in intensity and spread, having some stores of food and water, being a little self sufficient is a good and necessary thing, however, it's not a solution or viable option in the long term.
It's like the movie Titanic, during that chaos they underfill the lifeboats and then when the majority are frozen to death they then go and look for survivors, that's what the stores are for IMO.
The Spanish withdrew to the small mountainous region of Covadonga during the Umayyad Caliphate, however this could never last, no matter how self sufficient they were or not and thanks to Our Lady of Covadonga they defended themselves, however, they also needed to begin the Reconquista of Spain and they did this through a legitimate authority being their Catholic Kings with deep devotion to Our Lady, Ark of the New Covenant.
They then went even further ending human sacrifice in South America and sharing the faith, also defending Rome itself during the Battle of Lepanto.
So we cannot jettison our nations, trouble is on the horizon, we should try and brace ourselves for the coming storm, but we also need to reclaim our nations for Christ, to not be stuck forever in defence but also to go on offence thus being attentive to opportunities that arise for this IMO, not only for mitigation but also for renewal, not only for ourselves but for all even beyond nations, also why it's very important to pray for Russia as per Our Lady of Fatima IMO and win battles over the attacks on marriage and the family.
Also, in terms of Yugoslavia, more specifically Serbia, small communities couldn't do anything against NATO bombs.
God Bless
QuoteI don't think the Amish were right. The Amish are only okay because the masses haven't turned on them, even Christ tells us to preach the Gospel to all the nations.
And why will the masses turn on them? Because they'll be the ones with food. Which proves my point.
The goal is not to prepare for an apocalyptic end. The more likely scenario is escaping the control of government. In the future your kids will subsist on beans and mystery sausage, composed of soy and insects. US beef will all be exported to Israel, and US pork and chicken will go to China.
And to get your beans and sausage, you'll need a chip implanted in your hand or forehead.
However if you are living in a self-sufficient Trad Haven with local healthy food production, and local currency, you can flip off the government.
Socialist utopias don't last long. What would happen to California or Chicago if the government programs were shut off?
So after the collapse, a collapse which may see the Amish killed and shoved into cooking pots of savages imported into the US, the Trad Havens, who are armed and united can emerge and reconquer their historic homeland.
It's more about mindset. If you want to save the "West", then you will be very depressed as you watch the Drag Queen story time hour invade public schools, and see the utter filth in media.
If you understand that there is nothing left to save in the Former West, while you preserve the remants of Westernese, then you pass the popcorn and enjoy the show.
QuoteThe Spanish withdrew to the small mountainous region of Covadonga during the Umayyad Caliphate, however this could never last, no matter how self sufficient they were or not and thanks to Our Lady of Covadonga they defended themselves, however, they also needed to begin the Reconquista of Spain and they did this through a legitimate authority being their Catholic Kings with deep devotion to Our Lady, Ark of the New Covenant.
All true, but a non sequitur. Trad Havens will have the Catholic Faith. In fact, they'll have all four pillars of the Westernese:
1. Catholic Faith
2. Greek Realism
3. Roman Rule by Law
4. Roman Patriarchy
Quote from: Severinus on December 11, 2023, 10:39:17 AMQuote from: awkward customer on December 11, 2023, 06:57:41 AMQuote from: Severinus on December 07, 2023, 03:32:36 PMAs Clau's comic pithily showed, it is simply not possible for a young man to live out a Catholic life with the operative assumption that everything is definitely about to collapse and even the world is about to end. Until that is before his very eyes in material fact, he must wake up each morning and set to work as though life goes on and wonderful things are possible with God. It is immensely destructive to do otherwise, no matter the amount of prayer.
No-one want to live through a collapse or the end of the world, or live with the absolute certainty that disaster is definitely imminent.
But there's no "definitely" involved here. Some people, myself included, look around and see an entirely unprecedented situation which appears to fulfil certain Scriptural predictions. That's all.
This is an inference with some evidence in its favor, it's not a fact. It's exceedingly dangerous to fixate on an inference about the imminent end of the world. It warps the faith by prescinding from God's plan (the details of which are unknown to us) and warps the practice of prudence by emphasizing low time preference, futility, and withdrawal. It's a fixation that regularly appears in the belief-sets of cults.
QuoteYoung men, like everyone else, would do worse than learn to live with that, just as we all have to learn to live with the fact that we might die at any time.
Memento mori ....
What I'm saying goes for everyone, but particularly for young men in their prime who are meant, by the vocation of their sex and life stage, to energetically seize the day.
Memento mori (not just for personal death but social collapse and the end times) is one thing, but you and Truthseeker are not understanding what I mean by operative assumption.
It is quite the contrary. You write like a Satanist.
Gospel according to St. Matthew [24:33].
Carpe diem is living impious of this world, as I have already written about above in this topic.
Quote from: james03 on December 13, 2023, 10:39:40 AMSo after the collapse, a collapse which may see the Amish killed and shoved into cooking pots of savages imported into the US, the Trad Havens, who are armed and united can emerge and reconquer their historic homeland.
How did that work out in the Vendee?
A reasonable point. However the Vendee is an example of what happens when Catholics AREN'T prepared. They got caught off-guard and were not organized. They also went to armed resistance.
It's like a Trad group taking up armed resistance to "save the Former West", and getting flattened by drones and armored personnel carriers in a few days time.
My position is you set up Trad Havens in places that the elites don't give a crap about. If some satrap gets set up to rule the area, you bribe him. No one in DC or NY knows what's going on, nor do they care. And the satrap likes getting real food and is tired of having his car tires slashed.
But giving up this delusion of "saving the Former West" is a necessity, as it deters any impulse to try to overthrow the government with arms.
Quote from: Truthseeker on December 14, 2023, 05:52:03 AMQuote from: Severinus on December 11, 2023, 10:39:17 AMQuote from: awkward customer on December 11, 2023, 06:57:41 AMQuote from: Severinus on December 07, 2023, 03:32:36 PMAs Clau's comic pithily showed, it is simply not possible for a young man to live out a Catholic life with the operative assumption that everything is definitely about to collapse and even the world is about to end. Until that is before his very eyes in material fact, he must wake up each morning and set to work as though life goes on and wonderful things are possible with God. It is immensely destructive to do otherwise, no matter the amount of prayer.
No-one want to live through a collapse or the end of the world, or live with the absolute certainty that disaster is definitely imminent.
But there's no "definitely" involved here. Some people, myself included, look around and see an entirely unprecedented situation which appears to fulfil certain Scriptural predictions. That's all.
This is an inference with some evidence in its favor, it's not a fact. It's exceedingly dangerous to fixate on an inference about the imminent end of the world. It warps the faith by prescinding from God's plan (the details of which are unknown to us) and warps the practice of prudence by emphasizing low time preference, futility, and withdrawal. It's a fixation that regularly appears in the belief-sets of cults.
QuoteYoung men, like everyone else, would do worse than learn to live with that, just as we all have to learn to live with the fact that we might die at any time.
Memento mori ....
What I'm saying goes for everyone, but particularly for young men in their prime who are meant, by the vocation of their sex and life stage, to energetically seize the day.
Memento mori (not just for personal death but social collapse and the end times) is one thing, but you and Truthseeker are not understanding what I mean by operative assumption.
It is quite the contrary. You write like a Satanist.
That's a new one. Cheers.
QuoteGospel according to St. Matthew [24:33].
You need to expound a little. What you're doing is intellectually worse than protestant proof-texting.
QuoteCarpe diem is living impious of this world, as I have already written about above in this topic.
One can seize the day in the service of God. Have you never done that?
Quote from: james03 on December 13, 2023, 10:39:40 AMAnd why will the masses turn on them? Because they'll be the ones with food. Which proves my point.
And the masses will overwhelm them.
Quote from: james03 on December 13, 2023, 10:39:40 AMThe goal is not to prepare for an apocalyptic end. The more likely scenario is escaping the control of government. In the future your kids will subsist on beans and mystery sausage, composed of soy and insects. US beef will all be exported to Israel, and US pork and chicken will go to China.
The climate change narrative, dictates that even the Amish must comply for anyone eating meat etc is a threat to all, the entire planet, which means that you are not going to escape this control, therefore one must fight against it and save as many souls as possible.
The Amish don't understand the big picture, if Russia were to fall, and the whole LGBTQIA agenda became exclusively dominant, you really think they would continue to leave the Amish alone? And when they decide to take on the Amish at that point, they will stand no chance. They are left alone now because they are no threat, they can be dealt with easily enough later.
Quote from: james03 on December 13, 2023, 10:39:40 AMAnd to get your beans and sausage, you'll need a chip implanted in your hand or forehead.
And you think the Amish will escape that?
Quote from: james03 on December 13, 2023, 10:39:40 AMHowever if you are living in a self-sufficient Trad Haven with local healthy food production, and local currency, you can flip off the government.
No, you just get conquered IMO. Christ says to preach the Gospels to all the nations, we cannot write any nation or group of people off IMO.
Quote from: james03 on December 13, 2023, 10:39:40 AMSocialist utopias don't last long. What would happen to California or Chicago if the government programs were shut off?
Exactly, which is why I wouldn't want to be in any of the major cities, and why stores are important for that initial chaotic period IMO, this too can be mitigated though.
Quote from: james03 on December 13, 2023, 10:39:40 AMIt's more about mindset. If you want to save the "West", then you will be very depressed as you watch the Drag Queen story time hour invade public schools, and see the utter filth in media.
Yes, it is depressing, but there is also hope.
Quote from: james03 on December 13, 2023, 10:39:40 AMIf you understand that there is nothing left to save in the Former West, while you preserve the remants of Westernese, then you pass the popcorn and enjoy the show.
If the bushfire is burning your enemies house, you can sit back and enjoy the show, but after it's done with their house it's coming for yours too.
God Bless
Quote from: james03 on December 14, 2023, 10:57:59 AMMy position is you set up Trad Havens in places that the elites don't give a crap about. If some satrap gets set up to rule the area, you bribe him. No one in DC or NY knows what's going on, nor do they care. And the satrap likes getting real food and is tired of having his car tires slashed.
You can go down that path if you like, nevertheless, this reminds me of the fake vaccine certificates some people got during the mandates, I don't judge such people at all, perhaps it was their only viable option considering the circumstances, but this can only give you a small amount of time, it's not a solution and as they consolidated their power they were going to improve their systems and eventually weed these people out.
Once they have weeded them out, it's worse because there are even fewer people to stand with them at that point and they are known for lying, so the reputation is also damaged, now the enemy can accuse them of dishonesty.
God Bless
Quote from: Severinus on December 14, 2023, 04:50:37 PMOne can seize the day in the service of God. Have you never done that?
Quote from: Severinus on December 07, 2023, 04:21:46 PMQuote from: Truthseeker on December 07, 2023, 03:57:03 PMQuote from: Severinus on December 07, 2023, 03:32:36 PMAs Clau's comic pithily showed, it is simply not possible for a young man to live out a Catholic life with the operative assumption that everything is definitely about to collapse and even the world is about to end. Until that is before his very eyes in material fact, he must wake up each morning and set to work as though life goes on and wonderful things are possible with God. It is immensely destructive to do otherwise, no matter the amount of prayer.
He should not think about what he will suffer, but act with zeal for the glory of God according to His will every day as if it were his last (he does not know when he will die). But he should fear Lord God, remember death and the Last Judgment, the reward and punishment of hell.
You're missing a small but important distinction between being prepared to die and operatively believing you're about to die and/or total social collapse and the end of the world are at hand. The former is necessary, the latter is destructive for a young man, who should have a different operative belief until the end is before his eyes.
Quote from: Severinus on December 14, 2023, 04:50:37 PMOne can seize the day in the service of God. Have you never done that?
You denied it when I wrote about it (bold font).
Modernists use a double understanding of an unclear text. This is typical for them.
Why does everyone assume that the cities will be the worst places to be during a collapse/apocalypse situation?
Surely the general rule has been that during times of crisis and disintegration, the cities are fed while the countryside starves. Mao's Great Leap Forward cost the lives of 40 million Chinese peasants, while the cities were fed. Ukrainian farmers died in millions from starvation while Moscow had plenty to eat. During the famine which devastated Ireland, who starved? The people in the cities? Of course not.
Cities are where all the power is. Unless a complete collapse in which nothing ever works again is on the cards - and it rarely is - order and food supplies will be maintained where the power is - the cities.
There's no one, right solution to this. People who have survived such situations often put their survival down to a combination of luck and the kindness of strangers. Russian Orthodoxy survived 70 years of communism, despite the best efforts of the Bolsheviks to destroy it. To my knowledge, there were no successful Trad communities in Siberia.
Quote from: awkward customer on December 15, 2023, 08:09:16 AMWhy does everyone assume that the cities will be the worst places to be during a collapse/apocalypse situation?
Surely the general rule has been that during times of crisis and disintegration, the cities are fed while the countryside starves. Mao's Great Leap Forward cost the lives of 40 million Chinese peasants, while the cities were fed. Ukrainian farmers died in millions from starvation while Moscow had plenty to eat. During the famine which devastated Ireland, who starved? The people in the cities? Of course not.
Cities are where all the power is. Unless a complete collapse in which nothing ever works again is on the cards - and it rarely is - order and food supplies will be maintained where the power is - the cities.
There's no one, right solution to this. People who have survived such situations often put their survival down to a combination of luck and the kindness of strangers. Russian Orthodoxy survived 70 years of communism, despite the best efforts of the Bolsheviks to destroy it. To my knowledge, there were no successful Trad communities in Siberia.
Your examples are not indicative of an apocalypse situation.
Quote from: awkward customer on December 15, 2023, 08:09:16 AMWhy does everyone assume that the cities will be the worst places to be during a collapse/apocalypse situation?
Surely the general rule has been that during times of crisis and disintegration, the cities are fed while the countryside starves. Mao's Great Leap Forward cost the lives of 40 million Chinese peasants, while the cities were fed. Ukrainian farmers died in millions from starvation while Moscow had plenty to eat. During the famine which devastated Ireland, who starved? The people in the cities? Of course not.
Cities are where all the power is. Unless a complete collapse in which nothing ever works again is on the cards - and it rarely is - order and food supplies will be maintained where the power is - the cities.
There's no one, right solution to this. People who have survived such situations often put their survival down to a combination of luck and the kindness of strangers. Russian Orthodoxy survived 70 years of communism, despite the best efforts of the Bolsheviks to destroy it. To my knowledge, there were no successful Trad communities in Siberia.
There will be no money, no oil and there will be war all around, probably terror, death and the wounded. Cities are good targets for shelling and bombing, and if they kill the pseudo-villages, there will be no food left. Now everything is mechanized. Take away people's fuel and you will see the result.
And besides, is there a village at all today ?
Antichrist must tempt people with something. Do you think that he will tempt only the pseudo-village ? Plus disasters, contaminations, later pestilence it seems to me that such as black death or worse etc.
.
Quote from: LausTibiChriste on December 15, 2023, 08:12:51 AMQuote from: awkward customer on December 15, 2023, 08:09:16 AMWhy does everyone assume that the cities will be the worst places to be during a collapse/apocalypse situation?
Surely the general rule has been that during times of crisis and disintegration, the cities are fed while the countryside starves. Mao's Great Leap Forward cost the lives of 40 million Chinese peasants, while the cities were fed. Ukrainian farmers died in millions from starvation while Moscow had plenty to eat. During the famine which devastated Ireland, who starved? The people in the cities? Of course not.
Cities are where all the power is. Unless a complete collapse in which nothing ever works again is on the cards - and it rarely is - order and food supplies will be maintained where the power is - the cities.
There's no one, right solution to this. People who have survived such situations often put their survival down to a combination of luck and the kindness of strangers. Russian Orthodoxy survived 70 years of communism, despite the best efforts of the Bolsheviks to destroy it. To my knowledge, there were no successful Trad communities in Siberia.
Your examples are not indicative of an apocalypse situation.
But they are indicative of a situation in which a powerful elite attempts to impose a new order onto an existing one, as in Soviet Russia and Maoist China?
If you believe we are facing the apocalypse, then surely the Globalist new order is being set up for the Antichrist right now. And once he 'sits in the temple of God as if he were God', he will come for all those who oppose him, including the Amish, in which case it's down to the Grace of God who survives to welcome the Second Coming of Christ.
Or you might believe that we not in an apocalyptic situation and instead are facing economic collapse on a global scale, which will end eventually, just like the Great Depression did, in which case you might come through it unscathed, or might not, depending.
Either way, there's no right or wrong answer on the question of how best to survive other than trust in God. It's His story.
Deus vult.