Theory about The Crisis and the chaos

Started by Miriam_M, October 29, 2018, 11:51:51 AM

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Michael Wilson

Aaag! I keep "cliking" on this thread thinking that there is new information or discussion! You've fooled me again, Mike!  :laugh:
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

TheReturnofLive

Quote from: King Wenceslas on December 13, 2018, 01:23:13 PM

"I felt my spirit inundated by a mystery of light that is God and in Him I saw and heard: the point of a lance like a flame that is detached, touches the axis of the earth, and it trembles: mountains, cities, towns and villages with their inhabitants are buried. The sea, the rivers, the clouds, exceed their boundaries, inundating and dragging with them, in a vortex, houses and people in a number that cannot be counted. It is the purification of the world from the sin in which it is immersed. Hatred, ambition, provoke the destructive war. After I felt my racing heart, in my spirit a soft voice said: 'In time, one faith, one baptism, one Church, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic. In eternity, Heaven!' This word 'Heaven' filled my heart with peace and happiness in such a way that, almost without being aware of it, I kept repeating to myself for a long time: Heaven, Heaven."


I thought Sister Lucia said this, not Pope Pius XII.
"The task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles but irrigate deserts." - C.S. Lewis

TheReturnofLive

Quote from: mikemac on December 15, 2018, 08:55:01 AM

If Kaesekopf is not going to do anything about it then there needs to be prayers of reparation said for the blasphemies committed against the Blessed Virgin Mary in this thread by some members of this forum.


I swear, is it by Divine Providence that Quare makes an argument that Satisfaction theology and an overtly extreme emphasis of authority above any other aspect of a Christian spiritual life leads to broken people abdicating their own flaws and responsibilities in a childlike fashion, and then three users proceed to act like children in ways that I've never seen in YouTube comments?

I mean, even the Pharisees were able to conceal their brokenness by wearing masks of public humility - why has your mask fallen off?
"The task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles but irrigate deserts." - C.S. Lewis

awkwardcustomer

Quote from: TheReturnofLive on December 15, 2018, 04:30:03 PM
Quote from: mikemac on December 15, 2018, 08:55:01 AM

If Kaesekopf is not going to do anything about it then there needs to be prayers of reparation said for the blasphemies committed against the Blessed Virgin Mary in this thread by some members of this forum.


I swear, is it by Divine Providence that Quare makes an argument that Satisfaction theology and an overtly extreme emphasis of authority above any other aspect of a Christian spiritual life leads to broken people abdicating their own flaws and responsibilities in a childlike fashion, and then three users proceed to act like children in ways that I've never seen in YouTube comments?

I mean, even the Pharisees were able to conceal their brokenness by wearing masks of public humility - why has your mask fallen off?

I noticed that and was too distracted to comment at the time.

Is Satisfaction theology similar to Reparation theology? I've been arguing that an over emphasis on Reparation theology has induced passivity in Catholics, particularly Trads.   The emphasis is constantly on suffering, making sacrifices, making reparation for all the insults and blasphemies etc, but never on taking action, or on doing anything.  In fact, taking action is positively discouraged.

The modern Marian apparitions have played a part in this.


And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.

Vetus Ordo

DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.

Quaremerepulisti

Quote from: awkwardcustomer on December 15, 2018, 05:53:05 PM
Quote from: TheReturnofLive on December 15, 2018, 04:30:03 PM
I swear, is it by Divine Providence that Quare makes an argument that Satisfaction theology and an overtly extreme emphasis of authority above any other aspect of a Christian spiritual life leads to broken people abdicating their own flaws and responsibilities in a childlike fashion, and then three users proceed to act like children in ways that I've never seen in YouTube comments?

I mean, even the Pharisees were able to conceal their brokenness by wearing masks of public humility - why has your mask fallen off?

I noticed that and was too distracted to comment at the time.

Is Satisfaction theology similar to Reparation theology? I've been arguing that an over emphasis on Reparation theology has induced passivity in Catholics, particularly Trads.   The emphasis is constantly on suffering, making sacrifices, making reparation for all the insults and blasphemies etc, but never on taking action, or on doing anything.  In fact, taking action is positively discouraged.

The modern Marian apparitions have played a part in this.

Yes.  All this, more than anything else, in my opinion, why the West is seriously sick and has been for some time, in fact well before Vatican II.

Learning how to obey authority is indeed the most important thing - for a five year old.  However, good parents help their children make good decisions on their own over time, as the children gain more maturity and ability to do so - and not only the bare fact of making good decisions, but internalizing the reasons why they are good.  If they don't, the children don't grow up, and disaster (usually) ensues when they leave home and haven't had any practice of making decisions without parents looking over their shoulder.  Moreover, even before leaving the house, the only thing that matters is getting on the parents' good side or being on their bad side - and thus, the motive for good actions is "appeasing parental wrath".  But how would a parent react if he knew a child was acting like that, thinking about "paying off a parental debt" rather than making good decisions because they are good?

Now Michael Wilson claimed that an "angry God" is not part of Catholicism but the very words used in Catechisms and in popular speech in the West contradict him, for sin means that God is "offended" and He will therefore punish, not in the sense that a good parent would punish to correct bad behavior, but to get vengeance.  Therefore the focus is on "assuaging God's wrath", which what Satisfaction/Reparation theology basically is about, instead of doing good because it is good.





Arvinger

Quote from: Quaremerepulisti on December 16, 2018, 07:27:35 PM
Learning how to obey authority is indeed the most important thing - for a five year old.  However, good parents help their children make good decisions on their own over time, as the children gain more maturity and ability to do so - and not only the bare fact of making good decisions, but internalizing the reasons why they are good.  If they don't, the children don't grow up, and disaster (usually) ensues when they leave home and haven't had any practice of making decisions without parents looking over their shoulder.  Moreover, even before leaving the house, the only thing that matters is getting on the parents' good side or being on their bad side - and thus, the motive for good actions is "appeasing parental wrath".  But how would a parent react if he knew a child was acting like that, thinking about "paying off a parental debt" rather than making good decisions because they are good?

Now Michael Wilson claimed that an "angry God" is not part of Catholicism but the very words used in Catechisms and in popular speech in the West contradict him, for sin means that God is "offended" and He will therefore punish, not in the sense that a good parent would punish to correct bad behavior, but to get vengeance.  Therefore the focus is on "assuaging God's wrath", which what Satisfaction/Reparation theology basically is about, instead of doing good because it is good.

Number of problems here:
1) Not everyone is God's child. Only baptized Catholics are God's children, others are in dominion of the devil. Also, a child can decide to runaway from the parent (as baptized Catholics do by commiting mortal sin) and die on its own - it does not mean its parent's fault. Or, if a child runs away and commits a crime, a parent can provide evidence so his child is punished by the state, as justice requires that. 
2) False equalization between parental love of a human and God's parental love, which reveals a very anthropocentric worldview. God loves us and set up the plan of salvation primarily for his own self-glorification. Once you reject anthropocentrism and take a theocentric view of God's plan, there is no contradiction nor problem.
3) Notice that when speaking about judgment and what is God's purpose for us, St. Paul compares us not to children, but to pots made by the potter, rhetoricaly asking how can the pot complain to the potter.

james03

QuoteLearning how to obey authority is indeed the most important thing - for a five year old.  However, good parents help their children make good decisions on their own over time, as the children gain more maturity and ability to do so - and not only the bare fact of making good decisions, but internalizing the reasons why they are good.  If they don't, the children don't grow up, and disaster (usually) ensues when they leave home and haven't had any practice of making decisions without parents looking over their shoulder.  Moreover, even before leaving the house, the only thing that matters is getting on the parents' good side or being on their bad side - and thus, the motive for good actions is "appeasing parental wrath".  But how would a parent react if he knew a child was acting like that, thinking about "paying off a parental debt" rather than making good decisions because they are good?

I agree teaching kids is important.  And I'm on record for complaining about Trad schools that stop at Algebra II in math as one small example.

At the same time authority, and following authority is important.  You learn that if you have to lead men.  I have a saying I live by: "When you are in charge, you have the right to be wrong."  That's how important it is to have authority maintained in a group.  That is masculine.  Feminine "collaboration" management is destroying this country.  It is gutting out our industries.

QuoteTherefore the focus is on "assuaging God's wrath", which what Satisfaction/Reparation theology basically is about, instead of doing good because it is good.
I have not been following this thread recently, so I don't know the context.  The Wrath of God is real.  Just read the account of God wiping out a bunch of Israel because David banged a married woman.  I agree the focus of our life should be on virtue, however I reject your apparent false dichotomy.  Do both, with the focus on virtue primarily.

Come to think about it, your first point is another false dichotomy.  So a man can't teach obedience on one hand, and at the same time teach skills?  Really?
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Quaremerepulisti

Quote from: Arvinger on December 16, 2018, 08:12:53 PM
Number of problems here:
1) Not everyone is God's child. Only baptized Catholics are God's children, others are in dominion of the devil. Also, a child can decide to runaway from the parent (as baptized Catholics do by commiting mortal sin) and die on its own - it does not mean its parent's fault. Or, if a child runs away and commits a crime, a parent can provide evidence so his child is punished by the state, as justice requires that. 
2) False equalization between parental love of a human and God's parental love, which reveals a very anthropocentric worldview. God loves us and set up the plan of salvation primarily for his own self-glorification. Once you reject anthropocentrism and take a theocentric view of God's plan, there is no contradiction nor problem.
3) Notice that when speaking about judgment and what is God's purpose for us, St. Paul compares us not to children, but to pots made by the potter, rhetoricaly asking how can the pot complain to the potter.

Your God is a pathetic, megalomaniac, egocentric dictator who will be worshiped by power-hungry people (e.g. bullies, just like we see a lot of on this forum) and sycophants and rightly despised by everyone else (psychologically normal people, that is).  This idea explains a lot, in fact quite a lot, of the problems in the Church both pre- and post-Vatican II.  Sooner or later, psychologically bullied people rebel, and the results often aren't pretty.  If this is God, Catholicism is just one big lie from start to finish, designed to manipulate and bully people into the love of a God who does not love them in reality but sees them only as pawns in his master plan for self-glorification, and tant pis if this master plan involves horrible suffering for the vast majority of them.  Now every (or most) dictators desire the "love" of their subjects or at least their praise and pretend that it isn't just the raw exercise of power, which is why they have parades, holidays, celebrations, celebrating the "great things" the dictator has done for the people.  Heck, even Orwell's Big Brother had parades celebrating the "generosity" of the Ministry of Plenty despite its love of power as a boot stomping forever.  So of course we have all these "proofs" of God's love such as Incarnation, Crucifixion, Eucharist, Sacred Heart, etc., but I absolutely refuse to participate in the farce.  If this is God I call Jesus, to His face, a liar and a fraud.  The definition of love is willing another's good primarily for their sake.  God expects us to call it "love" when He wills another's good primarily for His sake?  Not a chance as far as I'm concerned.  This version of Catholicism is a lie, and so it is no wonder that all too often Catholic apologists are willing to resort to lies in support of the "truth" (the Galileo Affair being a prime example, but also plenty of lies in support of YEC and so on).  I know all the arguments about Augustinian predestination, St. Paul and Romans, strict EENS and so on, backwards and forwards and they've all been beaten to death multiple times here and elsewhere.  Frankly, I find people with such views disgusting individuals who worship a disgusting God and again, refuse to participate in the farce, and refuse to be bludgeoned into submission with arguments to authority.  If all this were part of the Catholic Faith I wouldn't be Catholic.

Of course, maybe, just maybe,  God's love is a real reality and not just a fiction like the "love" of Kim Jong-Un for the North Korean populace and all these theologians are simply wrong, brutal and pathetic people creating a brutal and pathetic God all dressed up in nice theological language.  It looks like a farce because it is a farce.  And I know it is because I've experienced it (His love, that is).  I challenged God, you know, some time ago on all of the above.  My response to how can the pot complain against the potter is, guess what, I just did.  I am guessing that I am one in a very long list of people who have done likewise, despite the shrieks of "How dare you???" and threats of Divine chastisement which I am sure I will not have long to wait for from you.  After all, the early Christians were Platonists who believed in God as self-diffusing good - this idea of "self-glorification" only coming much later on the scene as a band-aid to justify Augustianian (or Thomistic/Banezian) predestination.  The Easterns would say there is such a thing as Divine immanence as well as Divine transcendence - yes, God is wholly other, and nevertheless He intimately concerns Himself with humanity in such a way that human good and Divine good are (at least for all intents and purposes) identical - God isn't out to "get back at us" because He can't - it's not His nature - sin harming us and harming Him again is, for all intents and purposes, one and the same thing - there is no real contradiction between an anthropocentric and theocentric worldview such as you claim.  And, even though we may be tempted to doubt it given conditions in the world, He does actually desire to pardon and save sinners more than anything else - yes, He desires to give glory to His Father, but He in fact gives the most glory to His Father by doing exactly that.  Yes, I know you will insist my experience must take a backseat to what is written on a printed page somewhere, but I don't care.  I saw what I saw, and that's that.


Quaremerepulisti

Quote from: james03 on December 16, 2018, 09:33:59 PM
I agree teaching kids is important.  And I'm on record for complaining about Trad schools that stop at Algebra II in math as one small example.

At the same time authority, and following authority is important.  You learn that if you have to lead men.  I have a saying I live by: "When you are in charge, you have the right to be wrong."  That's how important it is to have authority maintained in a group.  That is masculine.  Feminine "collaboration" management is destroying this country.  It is gutting out our industries.

It's not just teaching kids skills and information, but teaching a certain self-sufficiency and independence.  When submission to authority is emphasized as the only, or by far most, important thing, however, there is no room for innovation, inventiveness, creativeness, etc.  Moreover, the authority is there to aid your development as a person, but doesn't exist as an end in its own right.  This kind of thing is anathema in the trad movement, which is why you have people asking their priest what pants leg they should put on first.

True, authority is extremely important in order to get things done - when you have unskilled, unintelligent, unmotivated people doing the work.  These are the types of people in middle management obviously which is why "collaboration" style doesn't work - in middle management.  However, the need for top-down authority lessens and lessens the more people are able and willing to do things on their own.  To crack the enigma code it was necessary to leave people on their own and do their own thing.  A top-down method would not have worked.

QuoteI have not been following this thread recently, so I don't know the context.  The Wrath of God is real.  Just read the account of God wiping out a bunch of Israel because David banged a married woman.  I agree the focus of our life should be on virtue, however I reject your apparent false dichotomy.  Do both, with the focus on virtue primarily.

God can't be the author of evil.  It is a philosophical impossibility.  The idea that calamities befall because one has "incurred the wrath of the gods" with Zeus hurling down thunderbolts is a pagan one.

John Lamb

Quote from: Quaremerepulisti on December 17, 2018, 08:13:19 AM
Quote from: Arvinger on December 16, 2018, 08:12:53 PM
Number of problems here:
1) Not everyone is God's child. Only baptized Catholics are God's children, others are in dominion of the devil. Also, a child can decide to runaway from the parent (as baptized Catholics do by commiting mortal sin) and die on its own - it does not mean its parent's fault. Or, if a child runs away and commits a crime, a parent can provide evidence so his child is punished by the state, as justice requires that. 
2) False equalization between parental love of a human and God's parental love, which reveals a very anthropocentric worldview. God loves us and set up the plan of salvation primarily for his own self-glorification. Once you reject anthropocentrism and take a theocentric view of God's plan, there is no contradiction nor problem.
3) Notice that when speaking about judgment and what is God's purpose for us, St. Paul compares us not to children, but to pots made by the potter, rhetoricaly asking how can the pot complain to the potter.

Your God is a pathetic, megalomaniac, egocentric dictator who will be worshiped by power-hungry people (e.g. bullies, just like we see a lot of on this forum) and sycophants and rightly despised by everyone else (psychologically normal people, that is).  This idea explains a lot, in fact quite a lot, of the problems in the Church both pre- and post-Vatican II.  Sooner or later, psychologically bullied people rebel, and the results often aren't pretty.  If this is God, Catholicism is just one big lie from start to finish, designed to manipulate and bully people into the love of a God who does not love them in reality but sees them only as pawns in his master plan for self-glorification, and tant pis if this master plan involves horrible suffering for the vast majority of them.

You're both wrong. One of you is looking at God only as He relates to us as mere creatures (wherein we really are His servants with whom He does whatever He wishes), and the other is looking at God only as He relates to us as adopted sons in Christ. Of course considered in Himself, God is beyond all categories; but in relation to us, both of these are valid.

The "sickness of the West" which Quare likes often to refer to is just an inevitable consequence of the death of charity in the Christian life, which makes Christian lose all knowledge of their sonship and leaves them merely as (very sinful) creatures at risk of being punished by a Just God, leaving us in a situation closer to the Old Testament than to the New Testament. But I think Quare exaggerates the impact of this on Western theology and preaching. Apart from Calvinism and Jansenism which really does make God out to be unlovable, we've had theologians like St. Teresa, St. Alphonsus, and St. Thérèse who constantly stress God's love for and friendship with us.
"Let all bitterness and animosity and indignation and defamation be removed from you, together with every evil. And become helpfully kind to one another, inwardly compassionate, forgiving among yourselves, just as God also graciously forgave you in the Anointed." – St. Paul

Xavier

Since the satisfaction issue was dealt with to satisfaction (pun intended!) on another thread, let's see if we can get back to Our Lady of Fatima one last time.

Notice that none of the opponents of Fatima were able to answer that article that (1) proved clearly that trained public prosecutors, who tried with cunning and deceitful intentions to catch the children of Fatima in one small lie, but admitted it was impossible to do so. (2) showed only Freemasons and other opponents of Christianity opposed and fought against Our Lady of Fatima, but without ultimate success (3) showed how many were the fruits of sanctity, and much more. Here's another article from the site, whose founder is Fr. George de Nantes. "«??After the benediction, His Grace the Archbishop of Evora addresses a vibrant appeal to the faithful present, exhorting them not to fail to sing at Fatima and in every place the glories of Mary, Patroness of Portugal. "?Today was the greatest religious demonstration?", he added, "?and perhaps none like it has ever been seen.?"

«??After the Ave Maria of Lourdes and other canticles, as a profession of faith everybody sings Queremos Deus (We want God), renewing the consecration to Our Lady one final time.

«??Two hours later, this mysterious place where every stone breathes of piety, penance and sacrifice, had become once more a haven of peace and silence..." http://crc-internet.org/our-doctrine/catholic-counter-reformation/the-whole-truth-about-fatima-volume-2/2-3-the-beginnings-of-a-magnificent-renaissance/

Here are the Popes: "Pope Pius XII, whose Episcopal consecration took place on May 13, 1917, the date of Our Lady's first apparition at Fatima (there are no coincidences with God!), did many things to help encourage devotion to Our Lady of Fatima. He was known as "the Pope of Fatima". He said, "The time for doubting Fatima has passed, the time for action is now." When the Pilgrim Virgin statue was touring Italy, and miracles were being worked wherever it went, Pius XII stated in amazement: "We can hardly believe our eyes." https://fatima.org/about/fatima-the-facts/approvals-by-the-popes/

Recall again what Pope Benedict XIV (De Canoni. Sanct.) says: "Though an assent of Catholic faith be not due to them, they deserve a human assent according to the rules of prudence by which they are probable and piously credible."

The Sacred Heart devotion was known to the Apostles, and practiced by St. John. Our Lord appeared with St. John to St. Gertrude and she spoke to him about it. Jesus said the renewed appreciation of it was reserved for those times, when love had grown cold in the hearts of many. The 9 First Fridays promise was given to St. Margaret, after many people had scruples about whether they would be saved. It is the Lord's right and Our Lady's privilege to direct our actions from heaven in any particular age as They choose. The Immaculate Heart was emphasized by God as Heavens's chosen remedy for the evils of our time. This is not new revelation, but helps us live out the deposit of faith already received in whatever time period of history we live in. St. Thomas explains this as the purpose of private revelation:

"Reply to Objection 3. The prophets who foretold the coming of Christ could not continue further than John, who with his finger pointed to Christ actually present. Nevertheless as Jerome says on this passage, "This does not mean that there were no more prophets after John. For we read in the Acts of the Apostles that Agabus and the four maidens, daughters of Philip, prophesied." John, too, wrote a prophetic book about the end of the Church; and at all times there have not been lacking persons having the spirit of prophecy, not indeed for the declaration of any new doctrine of faith, but for the direction of human acts. Thus Augustine says (De Civ. Dei v, 26) that "the emperor Theodosius sent to John who dwelt in the Egyptian desert, and whom he knew by his ever-increasing fame to be endowed with the prophetic spirit: and from him he received a message assuring him of victory." http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3174.htm

Fatima therefore comes under such prophetic guidance given by God for the direction of human acts. Public revelation admonishes you, "Despise not prophecies" (1 Thess 5:20). Elsewhere, in a commentary on St. Matthew, the Angelic Doctor confirms that the Spirit of prophecy will never be lacking, "The mission of prophecy is twofold: it is sent to establish the Faith and to correct morals; but (today) the Faith has already been founded, for the promises were fulfilled by Christ. But for that which is concerned with correcting morals, prophecy never has, never will be lacking." (Divi Thomae Aquinatis Expositio in. ..Matthaeum, chap. XI, 13. (Neapoli, 1858), p. 102.) http://priv-rev.blogspot.com/2008/04/ch-1-what-is-private-revelation.html

It is the privilege and the prerogative of Jesus and Mary to direct human acts in every age however they want. If they tell us episcopal consecration of individual countries are very good, and Papal Consecration of Russia in particular would save the Church from Communism, it is good and just for all churchmen to obey Jesus and Mary in that. If They give prophetic warnings of what may happen otherwise, it is for our good that this is done and it helps us to avoid or minimize it.

If the Emperor Constantine had not obeyed the voice of God telling him to exalt the Holy Cross, Constantine would never have been Constantine. The Holy Spirit cannot be commanded to be silent by man. He will continue to speak and give His gifts of prophesy and of direction from heaven for our time - not new revelation of doctrine, but directing human acts to live out the Faith already handed down - just as He wills, and nobody can really stop Him from doing so.

Sr. Lucia did not lie. She would not have gotten away with lying anyway, nor would God have borne witness to her before Popes by His miracles and by innumerable fruits of the greatest sanctity, thus confirming her testimony by His. Sr. Lucia was given some messages she was to make known to the Holy Father. She did this in a proper way and the Popes confirmed clearly the time for doubting her message is past, and the time for Catholic Action based on it is now. The Popes repeatedly sought her counsel and even Bishops frequently made consecrations of individual countries.

The two saintly children of Fatima who died in infancy amazed even their persecutors by their fidelity and their testimony. They were too simple to lie or deceive.

The matter is settled and the case is closed. Fatima is as approved as any apparition can ever be. Good Catholics will assent by pious faith, a human assent we give to miraculous facts outside Sacred Scripture. That is the teaching of the Popes, Saints and Doctors. The end.
Bible verses on walking blamelessly with God, after being forgiven from our former sins. Some verses here: https://dailyverses.net/blameless

"[2] He that walketh without blemish, and worketh justice:[3] He that speaketh truth in his heart, who hath not used deceit in his tongue: Nor hath done evil to his neighbour: nor taken up a reproach against his neighbours.(Psalm 14)

"[2] For in many things we all offend. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man."(James 3)

"[14] And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations; [15] That you may be blameless, and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation; among whom you shine as lights in the world." (Phil 2:14-15)

mikemac

Quote from: mikemac on November 29, 2018, 07:24:20 PM
So you guys are saying that it was the devil that said the following.

"cease offending God"

"Say the Rosary every day, to bring peace to the world and the end of the war."

"Look, my daughter, at my Heart encircled by these thorns with which men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, strive to console me, and so I announce: I promise to assist at the hour of death with the grace necessary for salvation all those who, with the intention of making reparation to me, will, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months, go to confession, receive Holy Communion, say five decades of the beads, and keep me company for fifteen minutes while meditating on the fifteen mysteries of the Rosary."

You actually believe that the devil would say these things?

You guys have lost your collective minds.  This is the most ridiculous thing I have read on any Catholic forum.  Even more ridiculous than Impy.

Kaesekopf it's time for you to put an end to this blasphemous nonsense once and for all.

If Kaesekopf is not going to do anything about it then there needs to be prayers of reparation said for the blasphemies committed against the Blessed Virgin Mary in this thread by some members of this forum.

From the Raccolta, prayer 84.

http://www.liturgialatina.org/raccolta/index.htm

Quote84.  PRAYERS FOR EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK, WITH THREE "AVE MARIA'S" ETC.

Pope Pius VII., of holy memory, at the prayer of the Chapter of the Basilica of St. Mary in Cosmedin here in Rome, by a Rescript of the S. Congr. of Indulgences, dated June 21, 1808, kept in the Archivium of the said Basilica, granted -
i. An indulgence or 300 days, once a day, to all the faithful who, with contrite hearts, say the following prayers to our Blessed Lady, extracted from the spiritual works of the holy Bishop Alphonsus Maria de' Liguori, each on that day of the week to which it has been assigned, together with three Ave Maria's, with the intention of making some reparation to her for the many blasphemies which have been, and are daily uttered against her, not only by unbelievers, but even by bad Christians.
ii. A plenary indulgence, once a month, to all who say these prayers, with three Ave Maria's, daily for a whole month, with the intention above named, on any one day when, after Confession and Communion, they shall pray to God for the Holy Church, &c.

PRAYER FOR MONDAY.

Most holy Mary, Queen of heaven, I who was once the slave of the Evil One now dedicate myself to thy service for ever; and I offer myself, to honour and to serve thee as long as I live. Accept me for thy servant, and cast me not away from thee as I deserve. In thee, O my Mother, I place all my hopes. All blessing and thanksgiving be to God, who in His mercy giveth me this trust in thee. It is true that in past time I have fallen miserably into sin; but by the merits of Jesus Christ, and thy prayers, I hope that God has pardoned me. But this is not enough, my Mother. One thought terrifies me; it is, that I may yet lose the grace of God. Danger is ever nigh; the devil sleeps not; fresh temptations assail me. Protect me, then, my Queen; help me against the assaults of my spiritual enemy. Never suffer me to sin again, or to offend Jesus thy Son. Let me not by my sin lose my soul, heaven, and my God. This one grace, Mary, I ask of thee; this is my desire; may thy prayers obtain this for me. Such is my hope. Amen.

Then say three Ave Maria's to the Blessed Virgin Mary in reparation for the blasphemies uttered against her.
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
Consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary (PETITION)
https://lifepetitions.com/petition/consecrate-russia-to-the-immaculate-heart-of-mary-petition

"We would be mistaken to think that Fatima's prophetic mission is complete." Benedict XVI May 13, 2010

"Tell people that God gives graces through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Tell them also to pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for peace, since God has entrusted it to Her." Saint Jacinta Marto

The real nature of hope is "despair, overcome."
Source

Quaremerepulisti

Quote from: John Lamb on December 17, 2018, 08:41:39 AM
You're both wrong. One of you is looking at God only as He relates to us as mere creatures (wherein we really are His servants with whom He does whatever He wishes), and the other is looking at God only as He relates to us as adopted sons in Christ. Of course considered in Himself, God is beyond all categories; but in relation to us, both of these are valid.

That is still a description of a despot.

QuoteThe "sickness of the West" which Quare likes often to refer to is just an inevitable consequence of the death of charity in the Christian life, which makes Christian lose all knowledge of their sonship and leaves them merely as (very sinful) creatures at risk of being punished by a Just God, leaving us in a situation closer to the Old Testament than to the New Testament.

But what are the exact reasons for this death of charity in the Christian life, but for the way God is/was portrayed: a vengeful, angry God devoid of compassion and one taking out His wrath on the human race.  And a vengeful, angry God is worshiped by vengeful, angry people.

One cannot love a vengeful God out to exact revenge, meticulously cataloging all our faults and foibles to have something to reproach us with later, unless we're sycophantic enough to get on His good side in which case He may "let us off" to some extent.  It's not psychologically possible.  It's possible for some sort of Stockholm Syndrome to exist, but that's about it.  Of course everyone has to pretend to love God, but it's all a big farce, and a lot of "preaching" these days is in reality cheap manipulation via guilt and one-upsmanship, and a lot of "piety" is pure phoniness. 

It's like a publisher for whom an author has labored long and hard, and produced a work of great quality, only to be berated by the publisher due to a typo on page 35.  What happens next, do you think?  Every i will be dotted and t properly crossed, but the next work will be mediocre junk, made with the absolute minimum of effort.  The author may praise the publisher in order to get his work published, but in reality he will despise him and rightly so.

Buuuut Divine justice you will say.  To which I reply, whatever happened to the Sermon on the Mount, "Blessed are the merciful, for they will obtain mercy", and whatever happened to the Scriptural truth that God has compassion.  Mercy is not just the bare practice of corporal and spiritual works of mercy as some seem to think, but over and above that an attitude of compassion, now seen (by many here) as evidence of weakness and condonation of sin.  That is a false compassion, but a true one nevertheless exists.  And is that how Christ acted?  Did He say to the woman taken in adultery, you dirty slut, you got what you deserved?  True, He berated the Pharisees for their self-righteousness but there is also definitely an aspect of compassion: true compassion.

QuoteBut I think Quare exaggerates the impact of this on Western theology and preaching. Apart from Calvinism and Jansenism which really does make God out to be unlovable, we've had theologians like St. Teresa, St. Alphonsus, and St. Thérèse who constantly stress God's love for and friendship with us.

Perhaps you can come up with a few counterexamples.  But we've also had unfortunately the rise of Banezism and then neo-Thomism in which God's "love" is an absolute farce, in the end He's looking out for Number One.


Kreuzritter

Quote from: Quaremerepulisti on December 17, 2018, 08:29:17 AM

QuoteI have not been following this thread recently, so I don't know the context.  The Wrath of God is real.  Just read the account of God wiping out a bunch of Israel because David banged a married woman.  I agree the focus of our life should be on virtue, however I reject your apparent false dichotomy.  Do both, with the focus on virtue primarily.

God can't be the author of evil.  It is a philosophical impossibility.  The idea that calamities befall because one has "incurred the wrath of the gods" with Zeus hurling down thunderbolts is a pagan one.

False premise: hurling thunderbolts upon human beings is necessarily evil. The Old Testament contradicts your claim that this notion of an avenging deity is a "pagan" one, whatever that means, unless, of course, you're implicitly invoking ideas from the pseudoscience of Biblical criticism that the Hebrew scriptures are synchretistic works of human hands that borrowed heavily from the theology, motifs and language of Canaanite myth and religion, in which case you've effectively nullified any real distinction between "paganism" and Christianity, unless, of course, you're invoking the idea that the Hebrew faith, like "paganism", was a primitive groping in the dark after God and the long history of Christian theology represents a process of deepening understanding of the true nature of the divine, not through revelation, but by applied reason and the inner encounter with the divine.

Given your ideas you've made public here concerning the historicity of various Old Testament narratives, I'd be willing to bet you are doing both, and when we add to that the hints of metaphysical and epistemological relativism you've expressed elsewhere on the subject of salvation, I don't know why you don't just come out and explicitly identify yourself with Modernism, being you would appear to subscribe to its essential ideas. Or maybe Marcionism or Valentinian Gnosticism?

So, if my own beliefs are "pagan" and yours "Christian", then so be it, I will proclaim my "pagan" religious identity and reject "Christianity".