Change from mortal sin to grace

Started by Michael, May 15, 2024, 08:07:45 AM

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Michael

Fr. Rooney was banned from Fr. Kimel's comments [https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2024/05/11/two-briefly-stated-arguments-in-favor-of-universal-salvation/#comment-43846], so I figured I'd post this here in search of a Catholic answer:

Why couldn't it be the case that someone in a state of mortal sin will inevitably repent? Why must the change from a state of mortal sin to one of grace be indeterministic (not necessitated; not entailed by antecedent causes)? You're familiar with the view that at least some free choices could be determined so long as there was a prior choice by the agent that was undetermined.

james03

Quote from: Luke 13And a certain man said to him: Lord, are they few that are saved? But he said to them  24 Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able.  25 But when the master of the house shall be gone in, and shall shut the door, you shall begin to stand without, and knock at the door, saying: Lord, open to us. And he answering, shall say to you: I know you not, whence you are.

Quote from: Matt 22Then the king said to the waiters: Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the exterior darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.  14 For many are called, but few are chosen

Quote from: Matt 2016 So shall the last be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen

Quote from: Matt 7Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat  14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Michael


james03

As far as Catholic teaching, we consult the Athanasian Creed:

Quote1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

....

Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.  30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man. ....

At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

QuoteWhy couldn't it be the case that someone in a state of mortal sin will inevitably repent?

Because they love hating and rejecting God too much.  They are slaves to their sin and the devil is their god.  Spend a few minutes reviewing the hatred, lies, ugliness, and evil everywhere in media and then confess thy folly.

QuoteWhy must the change from a state of mortal sin to one of grace be indeterministic (not necessitated; not entailed by antecedent causes)?

Because it is based on MERCY, which is freely given.  God owes nothing but damnation, hell fire, and a big flaming comet upon those who hate Him.  In a sense, it is deterministic, based on God's secret purpose.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Michael Wilson

Quote from: Michael on May 15, 2024, 08:07:45 AMWhy couldn't it be the case that someone in a state of mortal sin will inevitably repent? Why must the change from a state of mortal sin to one of grace be indeterministic (not necessitated; not entailed by antecedent causes)? You're familiar with the view that at least some free choices could be determined so long as there was a prior choice by the agent that was undetermined.
Those in mortal sin have the grace of God to repent; if they fail to do so, it is because they have rejected said grace.
I believe Catholic doctrine teaches that man has a free will and his choices are not pre-determined. However it is also true that our sins can become impediments to our conversion by weakening our wills and inclining them to these sins. That is why we must pray for the conversion of sinners, as they are in a bad situation.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Michael

Saint Thomas says, "[T]he movement of grace does not impose necessity; but he who has grace can fail to make use of it, and can sin."[1] Yet he says elsewhere, "[It] was impossible for the angel to sin in the first instant by an inordinate act of free-will."[2] Blessed Aquinas says, "[A]ll were created in grace, all merited in their first instant."[3]

This entails either--

A free act can be necessitated. or
Cooperating with grace (meriting-by-grace) need not be free.

This may be of interest to universalists or people sympathetic to universalism.

[1] https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1062.htm#article3
[2] https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1063.htm#article5
[3] Ibid

Michael Wilson

Angels were created in the state of Sanctifying Grace and they do not have any material body or passions that might impede their clear knowledge of their duty to submit to God as their last end, and therefore it was:
1. Impossible for them to sin in the first instant. 2. In the next to first instant, they clearly had a free choice to choose God as their last end or reject them; and they clearly foresaw the goodness of the first and the wickedness of the second. They also had the grace from God to choose the good and reject the evil.  3. In the second instant the good angels submitted themselves to God and the wicked ones rejected Him.
QuoteA free act can be necessitated. or Cooperating with grace (meriting-by-grace) need not be free.
If there is no free will in choosing the good or rejecting the evil, then there is no purpose of Heaven as a reward for the first or a punishment for the second. Those that were in either place would be there purely by an arbitrary choice of God, and God would not be the infinitely Good and Just being that He is.
It is Calvinism and it mirror opposite Universalism, that denies both the freedom of the will and the goodnes and justice of God.
Finally you have to stop arguing in favor of an opinion that has been condemned by the Church; you are endangering you faith and your eternal salvation.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Michael

#7
None of that refutes my conclusion. They had grace and merited beatitude without the possibility of sin. The universalist and non-universalist agree, then, that there are circumstances where grace can't be impeded. The debate is about what circumstances this can happen under. That it can happen is clear.

I defend universalism hypothetically in the spirit of "Iron sharpens iron". I don't preach it.

james03

QuoteSaint Thomas says, "[T]he movement of grace does not impose necessity; but he who has grace can fail to make use of it, and can sin."

This is St. Thomas talking about man.  He has a lot of scripture and Church Doctrine to work with.  And this is a correct statement, which aligns with his statement on Free Will in de Veritate.


QuoteYet he says elsewhere, "[It] was impossible for the angel to sin in the first instant by an inordinate act of free-will."

I don't have the context, but my attention is drawn to the word "inordinate".  I honestly can't work out what the point he is making.  Furthermore this is his stab at coming up with some ideas of angels.  In reality, there is not much in scripture about the history of angels.  Furthermore, there are some major differences between angels and men.  Angels had a one shot test.

QuoteBlessed Aquinas says, "[A]ll were created in grace, all merited in their first instant."[3]

Those that rejected grace, merited eternal damnation.  All that didn't revolt, merited the Beatific vision.  And once you have the Beatific Vision, the term "free will" is kind of useless.  You have what you are ordered towards, ever present, eternal.

Even in sin, we do the sin for the good that is in it.  So in the disorder of rejecting the greater virtue, we are still pursuing in the lesser virtue what we are ordered towards, in most cases pleasure.




"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Michael Wilson

#9
Michael:
QuoteNone of that refutes my conclusion. They had grace and merited beatitude without the possibility of sin. The universalist and non-universalist agree, then, that there are circumstances where grace can't be impeded. The debate is about what circumstances this can happen under. That it can happen is clear.
I defend universalism hypothetically in the spirit of "Iron sharpens iron". I don't preach it.
1. No this is not entirely true. They were created in the state of Sanctifying grace, TRUE;  but had not yet merited the beatific vision; 
2. Our First Parents were also created in the state of Sanctifying Grace, however they had to pass a test in order to merit their eternal happiness.  They failed and would have been damned, if it wasn't for the mercy of God that decreed our Redemption.
3.You do not reject Universalism as being incompatible with Catholic doctrine. You are trying to find an argument to justify it. Your position is the same as a man keeping company with a divorced woman; he knows that she is married, and yet he still wants to marry her, so he keeps seeking ways of justifying in his mind that her marriage was somehow not valid. He will either break off the relationship or end up living in sin.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Michael

Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 14, 2024, 03:45:03 PMbut had not yet merited the beatific vision
On the contrary,

Quote from: Blessed Aquinas(1), emphasis added[The demons] were deprived of the beatitude which they had merited.

Quote from: Angelic Doctor(2), emphasis addedThe angel was beatified instantly after the first act of charity, whereby he merited beatitude.

Quote from: St. Aquinas(3)Now an angel instantly, in his first act of charity, had the merit of beatitude.

Quote from: Aquinas(4)[It] does not appear to be possible for anyone to enjoy beatitude, and at the same time to merit it.

Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 14, 2024, 03:45:03 PMYou do not reject Universalism as being incompatible with Catholic doctrine
I reject universalism. It's heresy.

[1] https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1063.htm#article5
[2] https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1062.htm#article3
[3] Ibid
[4] Ibid

Michael Wilson

If the Angels had the beatific vision, none of them would have sinned, as it is impossible for one who has attained it to sin.
Here is Aquinas:
QuoteI answer that, There is a twofold opinion on this point. But the more probable one, which is also more in harmony with the teachings of the Saints, is that the devil sinned at once after the first instant of his creation. This must be maintained if it be held that he elicited an act of free-will in the first instant of his creation, and that he was created in grace; as we have said (I:62:3. For since the angels attain beatitude by one meritorious act, as was said above (I:62:5), if the devil, created in grace, merited in the first instant, he would at once have received beatitude after that first instant, if he had not placed an impediment by sinning.
And further:
QuoteReply to Objection 4.....as Augustine says (Gen. ad lit. iv, 24). Hence the first act was common to them all; but in their second they were separated. Consequently they were all of them good in the first instant; but in the second the good were set apart from the wicked..
Which is contrary to what you are affirming and contrary to St. Thomas's very words.
I'm glad that you reject universalism; why are you therefore arguing in favor of it?
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers

Michael

Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 14, 2024, 05:45:02 PMIf the Angels had the beatific vision, none of them would have sinned, as it is impossible for one who has attained it to sin.
This is true and I never denied it. It's a red herring to my argument.

The same goes for the quotations. Yes, the devils sinned after the first instant. During the first instant, they merited beatitude.

Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 14, 2024, 05:45:02 PM[W]hy are you ... arguing in favor of [universalism]?
Quote from: Michael on December 14, 2024, 01:11:45 PMI defend universalism hypothetically in the spirit of "Iron sharpens iron". I don't preach it.

Michael

Quote from: james03 on December 14, 2024, 02:54:30 PMThis is St. Thomas talking about man. (emphasis added)

Quote from: https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1062.htm#article3, emphasis addedArticle 3. Whether the angels were created in grace?

Michael Wilson

Quote from: Michael on December 14, 2024, 08:40:51 PMThe same goes for the quotations. Yes, the devils sinned after the first instant. During the first instant, they merited beatitude.
That is contradicting the quote from St. Thomas that I even highlighted.
Quote from: Michael Wilson on December 14, 2024, 05:45:02 PMif the devil, created in grace, merited in the first instant, he would at once have received beatitude after that first instant, if he had not placed an impediment by sinning.
St. Thomas is stating that IF the devil had merited in the first instant, he would AT ONCE have received beatitude. Ergo. He did not merit beatitude in the first instant.
St. Thomas cannot possibly state this any more clearly.

"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers