The Woman Question

[Francisco Javier]

I come from a middle-upper class American background. My youngest sister is approaching the age where this decision becomes somewhat relevant, and I am curious as to what the common "trad" perspectives are on: what ought women do when they finish a high school equivalent education?

The online trad hot take is to say they ought to live at home, be courted by a good Catholic lad with decent prospects, and then get hitched. Easier said than done, and its not as if every traditionalist lady has access to Catholic men who are ready and willing to settle down.

So then, what to do in the meantime?

Go to a 4 year university.
Pros: Learn a valuable skill, gain access to promising young men, gain/preserve social status, be better suited to be an educator, have something to keep busy with
Cons: Incur 80k+ in debt, forgo 4 years of wages, and often become swept up in the so-called 'college experience.' Aside from perhaps nursing, it sounds like an experience that will not yield a return on invested capital, and if it does, then it only does so after forcing women into working until they're 26 to break even

Go to community college
Pros: much cheaper, live at home, better chances of avoiding the worst vices of college, can still go to uni but you'll save money and be more mature, have a better education to pass along to children
Cons: likely not going to gain much in marketable skills by an AA alone, spend 2 years of time, often goes with lost wages although not always, the men are typically lower quality, smaller pool of potential spouses, you'll still need to decide "what next" in a couple years, live at home (it ain't free)

Work immediately
Pros: will help save money to launch a family with, gain an appreciation for work
Cons: not really moving the needle towards marriage, not really working on 'a career' so what's the point, not likely to get pay too much beyond minimum wage, is 18 even socially appropriate to be marriageable - ie can trad men even date women this young without it being perceived as strange and quasi-predatory and is it even desireable for modern women to attempt to find a spouse at 18


This said, I am rather sympathetic to the difficulty that modern women face when young and discerning their future and I really don't know the prudent choice for young women attempting to live a trad life in a modern society

My father already took a ton of flack for pointing out that a law degree would mean she would need to work until she's in her early thirties to break even.

I welcome any and all perspectives (especially women's) given that my youngest sister will likely ask my input at some point.

[Maximilian]

This is an excellent question. I don't think there is an answer which is either
a) Easy, or
b) One-size-fits all.

In the process of constructing one' own answer, there are a few principles that are more or less universal, however:

1. Each young woman needs to be preparing for her vocation.
 
For a small percentage, that might be a religious vocation. For a much larger percentage, that vocation will be marriage. Every single thing, no matter how insignificant it seems at the time, which detracts from that purpose must be rigorously excised from one's life. The best time to start preparing is in childhood, but if you've delayed, then better today than tomorrow.

2. The best time to have children is in one's twenties.

Back in the day when society was still reproducing itself, unlike today when every developed nation is facing population collapse, the time to have babies was in your twenties. This also meshes with one's biological clock, not just in terms of reproductive capacity, but also in terms of energy and resilience and physical adaptability.

So any program which blocks out one's twenties from having children is a bad plan from the start. It is a bad plan in a way so fundamental that it virtually negates one's existence.

3. Prepare for being obedient and submissive to a man.

This is an essential element of marriage. If you are not emotionally prepared, in-synch and capable of doing this, then everything else you are doing is leading to a dead end. Debates about work vs academia, for example, need to be considered within the framework of improving one's virtue of obedience and developing one's sense of self-identity as a person who is subject to a superior.

4. Prepare to be hormonally capable of fulfilling your purpose.

A large percentage of women today simply lack the physical capacity to be females. A well-known French doctor published a study saying that most women he sees today are incapable of going through childbirth without a great deal of intervention. And these are the women who managed to get pregnant, so the large percentage of those suffering infertility are even worse off, and then there are those who are not sufficiently feminine to get married in the first place, in addition to today's growing population of young women who experience gender dysphoria.

So before considering any activity, a primary consideration must be the way in which it affects one's female hormones. There are blatant examples like using hormonal contraceptives. But lesser things can also add up to a large effect, things like competitive sports. There is the "softball girl" stereotype, those with thick, muscular thighs and short stature due to an excess of testosterone. Competing with men in school and business not only makes it difficult to fulfill point #3 above, but it also changes the balance of your hormones.

5. Prepare to be able to undertake the duties of a housewife.

How good are you at cooking and cleaning and taking care of small children? Are these things second nature to you, and things which you customarily do all day, every day? Or are they things you think you might learn to do some day in the future? If they are not already engraved into your "muscle memory," then after you are married is generally too late to learn.

When considering one's options for the time between graduating high school and getting married, activities should be ordered towards improving those skills which will be essential for the happiness and success of your future family.

6. Consider the difference between one's ontological nature and one's situation.

It is common for many girls to focus on improving their situation so as to put themselves into the path of eligible men. This is not wrong in itself, but it is secondary to the more important issue of improving oneself. It is common to worry about being Cinderella, full of virtues but stuck at home while other girls get to meet the prince at the ball. It's understandable why they feel this way, but after all, the point of the story is that the prince wanted to marry Cinderella so badly that he searched throughout the entire kingdom for her. Will a soul filled with virtues really be left behind in the corner?

I know a young lady -- who used to be an active participant here on the forum but more recently is too busy having children to have time to post -- who stayed home to keep house for her father. She developed both the natural qualities of her soul in order to be prepared for married life as well as the supernatural qualities of her soul. She served everyone around her without any concern for remuneration. Some secular relatives even used fairy-tale comparisons to criticize her situation as "Rapunzel" locked away in a tower. Eventually, however, more than one man flew across the ocean to ask her father for her hand in marriage. Now that she is 27, she is expecting her third baby.

[diaduit]

For myself, my nearly 17 year old daughter is taking the community college (here its called Further education)route and has very very little but some exposure to the alphabet crew and no really diversity rubbish like secondary school or uni.
She is aiming for an admin qualification to enter the workforce in either civil service or private industry.  If she wants to climb the ladder she can use corporate opportunities or night school to do that. 
Hubby and I just figure we are after putting in 16 years of faith and common sense and we couldn't see her being destroyed with liberal nonsense.  While hubby isn't practicing, he does see the awful damage that modern education is doing and he is with me on getting them to adulthood unscathed.
I would say, she is happy with this plan, she is a bookish introvert and doesn't relish the thought of uni.  She has a part time job which does wonders for her personality and character development so its not like she is living like a hermit either.

If your sister is determined for college and is an extrovert, it might be a harder option to sell to her.  You could do the authoritarian and demand she does not go but will that do more harm than good in the long run.  Its a fine line to walk, keep them in the faith and chaste while preparing them for their vocation or risk being too authoritarian causing conflicts that could drive them away from the faith. 

I do say to mine that they can apply to college as a mature student and qualify for grants independently at age 23 so that they are more mature and solid in their faith while not draining the family finances.

It really does depend on how warm your sister is to the idea of not going to college.

[Michael Wilson]

She should go on a spiritual retreat to see what is God's plan for her; the religious life is the surest and safest road to sanctity and Heaven.
Secondly if she is inclined to get married, then it would be good to pray for a good Catholic husband and happy marriage.
Third, meanwhile, if she has some area that she is interested in, that would also help her to find a job, then she should pursue this. Do not go to a nominally Catholic College or university, (almost all) as these are the most progressive and she is endangering her faith.
A vocational school is usually the best, and least expensive option, and most practical.

[james03]

Max nailed it.  And Michael is correct, she should pray for a good husband.  I'll stress some points:

She has to have the right mindset first (I'll assume she is already a good Catholic).  Without a proper mindset, then this is all academic.  Assuming she is not going to be religious, then she must have one goal -- to get married and have kids.

So is she thin, have long hair, dresses/acts feminine, and can cook?  Because those are the qualities a good Catholic man will be attracted to.

Then you come to college.  She wants an MRS degree.  Depends on the money situation.  Do not go heavy into debt.  But assuming it can be afforded, she can major in degrees where guys will be plentiful who can afford to have her be a stay-at-home mom.  Maybe accounting or IT.  Maybe get in the computer program, but take something easier like web design, just so you are around the target men.

Ideally meet a good man outside of college and skip it altogether.

[Maximilian]

Max nailed it. 

Thank you for the nice compliment.

And Michael is correct, she should pray for a good husband. 

Yes, good point. Underlying everything I said, and everything Michael Wilson said, is prayer. How do you become a good person? How do you make yourself attractive to men (including Jesus)? How do you discover your vocation? How do you insure that you are prepared for the day when you step up to the altar and say "I do" -- either to a husband or to a divine spouse? Through prayer

So is she thin, have long hair, dresses/acts feminine, and can cook? 

In addition to their primary importance which you emphasize, these things all have a big effect on your hormones. Don't be fat. I always say, "Being fat is worse than being disabled. Paul McCartney married a one-legged woman, but he never would have married a fat woman." Cardinal Siri in his famous letter on "Women Dressing like Men" points out that one of the bad effects is that the woman loses her own nature. When a girl doesn't "dress/act feminine," part of the masculinizing effect is psychological, but part of it is physical.

In re. to cooking -- nutrition is so essential today. The world is not only out to destroy your soul, it is destroying your body as well. Every time I go shopping I see middle-aged people in mobility scooters and young people who are of indeterminate gender -- often without even trying. I simply can't tell if they are a boy or a girl. If you are not investing a huge effort in studying nutrition now, in the future you will have a family that is fat and androgynous. Remember, "The life you save may be your own."

Do not go heavy into debt. 

Yes, good point. Nothing is more disastrous for fulfilling either vocation. We know, technically speaking, that debt is an impediment to a religious vocation. But even when it comes to a vocation of marriage, debt often acts as just as much of an impediment. Of all the bizarre things happening around us, if you asked someone from times past which astonishes them the most, even within a list of choices like "gay marriage," young girls taking on tens of thousands of dollars worth of debt to study ridiculous subjects while making themselves denatured and useless, would likely top the list.

But assuming it can be afforded, she can major in degrees where guys will be plentiful who can afford to have her be a stay-at-home mom. 

You're right that it's not nearly as bad as incurring debt. However, this was a failed experiment from the Forties and Fifties -- sending bored rich girls to college. It has been all downhill ever since. There was a Julia Roberts movie about this.

Maybe accounting or IT.  Maybe get in the computer program, but take something easier like web design, just so you are around the target men.

In some ways, when measured by "soul-crushing power," these majors might even be worse than more notorious subjects like "Gender Studies." You enter on day 1 as a young girl who is (hopefully) attractive, bright, cheerful, lively, affectionate. By the time you exit the program, you have become a soulless automaton, destined to a long life as a corporate drudge.

Ideally meet a good man outside of college and skip it altogether.

Right. It might appear difficult or even impossible to go against the flow to this extent in today's environment, but I know many young traditional-Catholic women who have skipped college and are now happily married.

[Mushroom]

I did two years of university and then a year of college but dropped out halfway since they were forcing the vax on people. During my year in college, I was talking to my now-husband and we were planning on getting married. My parents wanted me to do a degree but I knew I wasn't doing well in university (failing courses) and nothing really piqued my interest. I got married at 21 and it's been more than a year, and I'm glad that I made that choice and that I don't have to live under my parents' rules anymore. If I could do it again, I would have worked full-time right out of high school to save money. Also, I don't have debt since I did post-secondary with government grants and a scholarship and my husband has a job without having a degree. He actually moved up in his company and his programming skills were good enough for his boss to allow him to work remotely. We will not encourage post-secondary to our children and we are off-grid, homesteading (new to this) where we will raise our kids to continue in the same steps.

[Forum Poster]

Discerning one's vocation is difficult enough as it is, and it is made even more difficult in the modern world because we have been sold the lie that the world is our oyster, and that we can do anything we want when we grow up. This messaging begins as early as first grade in modern schools. By the time students graduate high school, they usually have only a very vague of idea of what they wish to do, or even no idea at all, and so they seek the "college experience" to put off the responsibilities of adulthood for a few more years, to "get a feel for things," and end up changing their field a dozen times.

No young person should attend college without necessity, and without a clear idea of what he or she wishes to achieve; every agent acts for an end, and when we cease to act for an end, we do not gain greater agency over our lives (the lie of "opportunity" that the modern world sells), but rather give up our agency and succumb to modern social conformity. Even if one does not go into debt or have one's mind and soul ruined by insane political brainwashing, this kind of "drifting" is simply contrary to what it means to live as a human being. Nor should one attend college simply to "get a feel for things" in life, because the same thing can be achieved by getting a job, which—even if it is only temporary—can provide valuable life skills and help one develop an appreciation for work. This also has the benefit of saving up some money in the meantime, which is necessary in today's precarious economic situation.

Others have covered principles in detail, and I don't have much to add to that, but I would like to provide some reflections based on experience. I'm a young woman in my early twenties currently attending a "mainstream" (i.e. modernist) Catholic university, and as strange as this may seem, I know that this is currently where God wants me to be. I recognize that my temperament, upbringing, and situation are uncommon. I was raised in an atheistic household, converted to Catholicism when I was thirteen, and found Tradition when I was fifteen. My username is "On the Contrary," not only in honor of St. Thomas Aquinas (whose work I was introduced to at fourteen), but because it reflects my life. I've always found myself in the role of the contrarian, whether it was fighting against modern art and music (even before I was Catholic), dealing with bad catechesis and liturgical abuse at my Novus Ordo parish, or pushing back against political indoctrination in public school.

I educated myself in theological matters because I simply had no choice under the circumstances I was placed in, and this eventually made me realize that I was called to an intellectual vocation. I use the term vocation here loosely, but in a sense, I do view it as a calling, because there is no other explanation for why God would have given me the particular gifts that He has. (Others have different gifts, and I have nothing but respect for that, as there is nothing more insufferable than a pretentious academic who views academia as an ideal that everyone must strive for. All roles and functions in society are equally important!)

I don't have a religious vocation, and I am definitely not called to marriage—but I have a private vow of virginity and plan on entering a Third Order in the near future. I was actually against the idea of college at first because I was fed up with classrooms by the time I graduated high school, but my parents would not hear of the idea of taking a gap year. I wanted to quit after my first week, but two traditional priests convinced me to stay. I do what I can to fight back against heterodoxy (for the sake of other students' minds), and I can certainly say that I've gotten a good education in understanding how the enemy thinks and operates.

All of this being said, there are still challenges. The human being is, by nature, rational and social. It is not natural for us to be constantly on our guard, unable to trust others around us for fear of moral and intellectual contamination. While it is often necessary in the modern world that we keep a certain distance from others in our communities, this is far from an ideal situation, and it often has a negative impact on one's peace of mind. I understand that my temperament, along with my past experiences and upbringing, have made it somewhat easier for me to survive in this kind of environment, but the difficulties still persist. More than once, I have struggled with disillusionment, because it truly is draining to be in this kind of situation, when it often seems like I am fighting alone and can usually only get a break on Sundays.

If college can be avoided, I would recommend avoiding it. For most young people, it isn't worth the cost, the risks, and the daily headache—and I don't believe that the majority of people currently in college actually have an intellectually-oriented vocation to begin with. Working immediately would probably be the best option. The "cons" listed in the original post—that this option doesn't necessarily lead to marriage and won't constitute part of building a career—are good to keep in mind, but I would counter by saying that this doesn't necessarily make work pointless. This generation needs to be preparing for a rough financial future, and any savings at all—even from working a minimum wage job—are better than none. Because adults living at home still need to contribute to their parents' household in some way, bringing in some supplementary income could be one way of fulfilling this.

Like other posters here have said, there really is no "one size fits all" answer to this question. We all have to do our best to discern and follow the will of God, and sometimes when too much advice is given, we suffer from information overload and remain paralyzed, unable to make a decision for fear of making a mistake. Mistakes will happen anyway and are simply part of life. Of course, it's better to take your time than to rush into decisions, but there also comes a time when we have to make the decision and stick to it.

[Francisco Javier]

Thank you to all those who have answered thus far.

I forgot an important detail - my brothers are all trending traditionalist, but my mum and sisters are more "conservative Novus Ordo" types. My father is a 'conservative Lutheran' who can at least recognize nature and has gradually been drifting closer to Catholicism.

The catch would be our cultural milieu of well off, private Catholic school conservative Novus Ordo types would point to women like Amy Coney-Barrett as a success story. She was able to accomplish it all: successfully married, 7 kids (2 adopted), grad school educated, competent and beloved professor, (semi-)accomplished lawyer elevated to the Supreme Court, and ultimately played a key role in overturning Roe v. Wade.

I would argue that there's nothing she did in her career that couldn't have been done by a man, and that nearly all of her court cases are less important than the love and care she could have given to her children. But of course, I could be - and often am - wrong. Perhaps she was called by God to do what craven men (likely all blackmailed by some sex scandal or other) wouldn't do. But to me, the exception just proves the rule.

The other issue is that my sister consistently scores at the top of her class, gets 99%ile+ on standardized exams. It seems almost a waste not to put that intellect to work.

[Forum Poster]

The other issue is that my sister consistently scores at the top of her class, gets 99%ile+ on standardized exams. It seems almost a waste not to put that intellect to work.

I think a shift in perspective is needed here. It's clear that God gifted your sister a strong intellect, and she now has the duty to use that gift well, so that she does not become like the foolish servant who buried his talent (Matt. 25:14-30). The best way for her to make use of her gift, then, is to do that God wants her to do. Perhaps God wants her to marry and have children, and in that case, she will use her intellect to educate her children and form their minds. Perhaps God is calling her to the religious life, in which case, she will need to find an order suitable to her temperament and her particular gifts. Perhaps God wants her to pursue higher education in a certain field and make use of her intellect that way.

In any case, it's important to focus on what God wants, rather than what the world regards as as good use of one's intellect.

I am not called to marriage, but if I were, I would love homeschooling my children and forming their minds. When I was still discerning, my friends and I would joke that if I had children, I would turn them all into Thomistic scholars by the age of fourteen. Eventually, I discerned that it was not God's will for my life to marry and have children, so instead, I must use the intellect that God gave me in other ways. But if He had wanted me to be a wife and mother, it would not have been a waste of my intellect, but simply a different use and application. I do not believe that attending university, studying, and writing is greater than being a wife and mother—in fact, this is one of the erroneous ideas that the modern world continuously tries to push on us to pull mothers away from the home and their children.

My best friend, who is married and expecting her first child, has pretty much a genius level of intelligence. In contrast to myself, however, she was not called by God to pursue higher education and an intellectual career. Her vocation is to establish a good Catholic home and to use her intellect to educate her children well. Neither of us wish to waste our intellects, and we recognize that the only way to put them to good use is to do what God wants for our lives, whatever that may be. We are called to different vocations and states of life, so we both make use of our intellects according to our particular callings; only being unfaithful to our respective vocations would be a "waste."

The idea that a good intellect is wasted by "only" being a wife and mother is an error that the modern world sells us as the enemies of the Church continue their assault on authentic femininity and motherhood. With truth did Theodore Roosevelt say: "The mother is the one supreme asset of national life; she is more important by far than the successful statesman, or business man, or artist, or scientist."

[diaduit]

I did two years of university and then a year of college but dropped out halfway since they were forcing the vax on people. During my year in college, I was talking to my now-husband and we were planning on getting married. My parents wanted me to do a degree but I knew I wasn't doing well in university (failing courses) and nothing really piqued my interest. I got married at 21 and it's been more than a year, and I'm glad that I made that choice and that I don't have to live under my parents' rules anymore. If I could do it again, I would have worked full-time right out of high school to save money. Also, I don't have debt since I did post-secondary with government grants and a scholarship and my husband has a job without having a degree. He actually moved up in his company and his programming skills were good enough for his boss to allow him to work remotely. We will not encourage post-secondary to our children and we are off-grid, homesteading (new to this) where we will raise our kids to continue in the same steps.

Amazing, I think I'll just call you Rambo trad from now on....what you did in a short number of years takes the rest of us years to figure out.

[james03]

I would argue that there's nothing she did in her career that couldn't have been done by a man, and that nearly all of her court cases are less important than the love and care she could have given to her children.

Amy Barret is a failure.  Likely some low paid nanny watched all of her kids take their first step.  How many tea parties did she miss out on?  Every morning her kids screaming, "Mommy, don't leave".

Sad really.

[Kaesekopf]

absolute rubbish

I find it laughable when people talk about how bad college is, yet stay enrolled themselves. 

Yes, just hamper your lifetime earning potential to satisfy the opinions of hypocritical cranks online.

[Tennessean]

I don't know. I can barely keep my own faith and my eyes on my professional goals. It might not be a bad idea for her to get some kind of a real career rolling. Not one of those make-work jobs, but something that keeps her responsible.

[AlNg]

The USA and other countries as well are in desperate need of solid Traditional Catholic leaders, men and women. A certain amount of higher education is necessary for that. OTOH, family life is most important for society, so at the same time, we need women who love their children and their family life.