My liberal church finally went over the edge.

Started by 2Towers, September 08, 2019, 06:18:48 PM

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coffeeandcigarette

Quote from: Miriam_M on October 07, 2019, 11:44:35 AM
...adding that, in the spirit of constructive suggestions that I made pages ago but was criticized for it, I think that one of the best steps parents can take -- when this is viable -- is to suggest to the TLM celebrant that an early morning Mass (if only one TLM can be offered) would do wonders for calming children.  If the suggestion comes from parents of young children it will not be viewed as a complaint but as a plea.  No later than an 8:30 start, preferably earlier. And obviously that probably only works if the drive is an hour or less.

Choices are not always possible, depending on the situation, especially if it's a diocesan indult Mass working around a fixed N.O. schedule, etc.  But there are a number of stand-alone TLM's on Sundays when a priest does have an option, even if he's traveling to the location.  That's true in my location, perhaps in some of yours, too.

Firstly, if it was possible, I am sure people would be exploring that option. It is impossible for me.

Secondly, if you are spending more then ten minutes TOTAL outside of mass with a child older than 9 months, I suggest to any mother that she start learning to discipline that child properly.

nmoerbeek

Quote from: queen.saints on October 07, 2019, 11:18:29 AM
Quote from: nmoerbeek on October 07, 2019, 09:19:15 AM


I am certain of the point that a shrieking infant does not diminish the grace of a Mass.



This Sunday a Dominican monk gave an excellent sermon about the importance of silence in the spiritual life and how the Low Mass fits into this. He had a quote from St. Thomas that said that silence is not the absence of noise, but the absence of noise leads to silence and is a necessary element of it. He said when we attend Mass we are supposed to be leaving one world and inhabiting another- God's world. He said we develop silence by practicing it and this is why the Church provides us with the Low Mass, in which there are long stretches of silence.


A shrieking child does not diminish the grace present in God's world at the Mass, but it does inhibit our ability to enter that world and benefit from those graces.

Silence is so important to the spiritual life that we should not delegate our time for silence and recollection with God to our weekly attendance at low Mass.

You are wrong when you say "our ability to enter that world and benefit from those graces."  We have no ability to enter into the life of grace by our own efforts, God has to invite us, move us, and then keep us there.    If God, in His providence allows a child to shriek during the Canon of the Mass how do you know that God has taken his Grace from you, or now there are graces you will not receive?  You don't all you know is that your senses have been disturbed. 





"Let me, however, beg of Your Beatitude...
not to think so much of what I have written, as of my good and kind intentions. Please look for the truths of which I speak rather than for beauty of expression. Where I do not come up to your expectations, pardon me, and put my shortcomings down, please, to lack of time and stress of business." St. Bonaventure, From the Preface of Holiness of Life.

Apostolate:
http://www.alleluiaaudiobooks.com/
Contributor:
http://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/
Lay Association:
http://www.militiatempli.net/

Miriam_M

Quote from: coffeeandcigarette on October 07, 2019, 11:54:38 AM
Quote from: Miriam_M on October 07, 2019, 11:44:35 AM
...adding that, in the spirit of constructive suggestions that I made pages ago but was criticized for it, I think that one of the best steps parents can take -- when this is viable -- is to suggest to the TLM celebrant that an early morning Mass (if only one TLM can be offered) would do wonders for calming children.  If the suggestion comes from parents of young children it will not be viewed as a complaint but as a plea.  No later than an 8:30 start, preferably earlier. And obviously that probably only works if the drive is an hour or less.

Choices are not always possible, depending on the situation, especially if it's a diocesan indult Mass working around a fixed N.O. schedule, etc.  But there are a number of stand-alone TLM's on Sundays when a priest does have an option, even if he's traveling to the location.  That's true in my location, perhaps in some of yours, too.

Firstly, if it was possible, I am sure people would be exploring that option. It is impossible for me.

Secondly, if you are spending more then ten minutes TOTAL outside of mass with a child older than 9 months, I suggest to any mother that she start learning to discipline that child properly.

That's pretty judgmental on a couple of counts.  First, this was discussed several pages ago, and no, it wasn't necessarily obvious to everyone that an earlier hour considerably reduces the need for parental intervention throughout Mass.  So the suggestion was made for those who hadn't considered that possibility, not for those who already knew the option was impossible.  Third, you wouldn't know how I, Munda, or any other parent here does or does not already know "how to discipline that child properly."  An exceptionally disruptive child by temperament is one that can be challenging to subdue without being severe.  I include not only myself -- who has no problem disciplining children -- and you wouldn't know that because you do not know me or my children, but also parents I respect and admire in church -- one of whom several years ago gave birth to an exceptionally restless/difficult child, even though the previous several had required only the standard kinds of discipline.  Previously, they had been successful with all of their children.  There was nothing they needed to "learn" about discipline.

Yes, some mothers & fathers do a poor job of discipline even outside of Mass (making the transition to Mass expectations even more difficult), but for you to assume that a parent who needs to remove a child needs to "learn how to discipline" is highly uncharitable and rashly judgmental of you.

queen.saints

Quote from: nmoerbeek on October 07, 2019, 12:36:51 PM
Quote from: queen.saints on October 07, 2019, 11:18:29 AM
Quote from: nmoerbeek on October 07, 2019, 09:19:15 AM


I am certain of the point that a shrieking infant does not diminish the grace of a Mass.



This Sunday a Dominican monk gave an excellent sermon about the importance of silence in the spiritual life and how the Low Mass fits into this. He had a quote from St. Thomas that said that silence is not the absence of noise, but the absence of noise leads to silence and is a necessary element of it. He said when we attend Mass we are supposed to be leaving one world and inhabiting another- God's world. He said we develop silence by practicing it and this is why the Church provides us with the Low Mass, in which there are long stretches of silence.


A shrieking child does not diminish the grace present in God's world at the Mass, but it does inhibit our ability to enter that world and benefit from those graces.

Silence is so important to the spiritual life that we should not delegate our time for silence and recollection with God to our weekly attendance at low Mass.

You are wrong when you say "our ability to enter that world and benefit from those graces."  We have no ability to enter into the life of grace by our own efforts, God has to invite us, move us, and then keep us there.    If God, in His providence allows a child to shriek during the Canon of the Mass how do you know that God has taken his Grace from you, or now there are graces you will not receive?  You don't all you know is that your senses have been disturbed.

It's the most essential and important time for inhabiting God's world. If even this time is spent without silence, then that is a serious issue for our spiritual lives.

It's not my opinion. It's the way God has chosen to work. According to this priest and the saints, God has chosen silence as a necessary door to enter His world. He could have chosen noise, but He didn't.

What I know is that there is not silence.
I am sorry for the times I have publicly criticized others on this forum, especially traditional Catholic religious, and any other scandalous posts and pray that no one reads or believes these false and ignorant statements.

nmoerbeek

Quote from: queen.saints on October 07, 2019, 01:40:17 PM
Quote from: nmoerbeek on October 07, 2019, 12:36:51 PM
Quote from: queen.saints on October 07, 2019, 11:18:29 AM
Quote from: nmoerbeek on October 07, 2019, 09:19:15 AM


I am certain of the point that a shrieking infant does not diminish the grace of a Mass.



This Sunday a Dominican monk gave an excellent sermon about the importance of silence in the spiritual life and how the Low Mass fits into this. He had a quote from St. Thomas that said that silence is not the absence of noise, but the absence of noise leads to silence and is a necessary element of it. He said when we attend Mass we are supposed to be leaving one world and inhabiting another- God's world. He said we develop silence by practicing it and this is why the Church provides us with the Low Mass, in which there are long stretches of silence.


A shrieking child does not diminish the grace present in God's world at the Mass, but it does inhibit our ability to enter that world and benefit from those graces.

Silence is so important to the spiritual life that we should not delegate our time for silence and recollection with God to our weekly attendance at low Mass.

You are wrong when you say "our ability to enter that world and benefit from those graces."  We have no ability to enter into the life of grace by our own efforts, God has to invite us, move us, and then keep us there.    If God, in His providence allows a child to shriek during the Canon of the Mass how do you know that God has taken his Grace from you, or now there are graces you will not receive?  You don't all you know is that your senses have been disturbed.

It's the most essential and important time for inhabiting God's world. If even this time is spent without silence, then that is a serious issue for our spiritual lives.

It's not my opinion. It's the way God has chosen to work. According to this priest and the saints, God has chosen silence as a necessary door to enter His world. He could have chosen noise, but He didn't.

What I know is that there is not silence.
Could you tell me what specific thing I said that you disagreed with?  I don't understand your reply in context to my own to you.


"Let me, however, beg of Your Beatitude...
not to think so much of what I have written, as of my good and kind intentions. Please look for the truths of which I speak rather than for beauty of expression. Where I do not come up to your expectations, pardon me, and put my shortcomings down, please, to lack of time and stress of business." St. Bonaventure, From the Preface of Holiness of Life.

Apostolate:
http://www.alleluiaaudiobooks.com/
Contributor:
http://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/
Lay Association:
http://www.militiatempli.net/

coffeeandcigarette

Quote from: Miriam_M on October 07, 2019, 12:38:23 PM
Quote from: coffeeandcigarette on October 07, 2019, 11:54:38 AM
Quote from: Miriam_M on October 07, 2019, 11:44:35 AM
...adding that, in the spirit of constructive suggestions that I made pages ago but was criticized for it, I think that one of the best steps parents can take -- when this is viable -- is to suggest to the TLM celebrant that an early morning Mass (if only one TLM can be offered) would do wonders for calming children.  If the suggestion comes from parents of young children it will not be viewed as a complaint but as a plea.  No later than an 8:30 start, preferably earlier. And obviously that probably only works if the drive is an hour or less.

Choices are not always possible, depending on the situation, especially if it's a diocesan indult Mass working around a fixed N.O. schedule, etc.  But there are a number of stand-alone TLM's on Sundays when a priest does have an option, even if he's traveling to the location.  That's true in my location, perhaps in some of yours, too.

Firstly, if it was possible, I am sure people would be exploring that option. It is impossible for me.

Secondly, if you are spending more then ten minutes TOTAL outside of mass with a child older than 9 months, I suggest to any mother that she start learning to discipline that child properly.

That's pretty judgmental on a couple of counts.  First, this was discussed several pages ago, and no, it wasn't necessarily obvious to everyone that an earlier hour considerably reduces the need for parental intervention throughout Mass.  So the suggestion was made for those who hadn't considered that possibility, not for those who already knew the option was impossible.  Third, you wouldn't know how I, Munda, or any other parent here does or does not already know "how to discipline that child properly."  An exceptionally disruptive child by temperament is one that can be challenging to subdue without being severe.  I include not only myself -- who has no problem disciplining children -- and you wouldn't know that because you do not know me or my children, but also parents I respect and admire in church -- one of whom several years ago gave birth to an exceptionally restless/difficult child, even though the previous several had required only the standard kinds of discipline.  Previously, they had been successful with all of their children.  There was nothing they needed to "learn" about discipline.

Yes, some mothers & fathers do a poor job of discipline even outside of Mass (making the transition to Mass expectations even more difficult), but for you to assume that a parent who needs to remove a child needs to "learn how to discipline" is highly uncharitable and rashly judgmental of you.
Jeepers, it was just a suggestion. In my long years of experience there are two basic kinds of parents outside churches. The ones who come out quietly, discipline junior, remind them to be good/quiet for Jesus/etc, and then go back in church. Then you have the mothers who bring out the kids and play with them, let them chat, maybe the moms even chat with someone...no/little discipline, junior runs around a little, quite a large portion of mass missed. Don't think I am blaming just the moms, oh no, many are the dads perched on the edge of the pew waiting for junior to screech or whine so they can "take them out" aka watch them run around outside while they smoke and chat with anyone else who happens to be outside, dashing back in just in time for communion. You do have a middle variety that sit in a cry room and chat a little with other moms and let their kids roll around on the floor/play/climb on things, etc. I am sure there are a few mothers and dads who have special needs children, and this hardly applies to them; but I'll leave it at that. This is not being a jerk, I am old, I have a lot of children of many different temperaments. I have intimate relationships with families of 8-13-20 who all have many children of different temperaments and you can draw a line right down the middle when looking at the behavior of said children in families where there is strict CONSISTENT discipline, or not. 

awkwardcustomer

Quote from: nmoerbeek on October 07, 2019, 09:19:15 AM
I am certain of the point that a shrieking infant does not diminish the grace of a Mass.

I assume that the triple exclamation point was meant to portray indignation at me?  Why, the graces of the Mass act upon all those in a State of grace, a christian should not be seeking to deprive other Christians of those graces. If you do wish to deprive others of graces then you should not expect God to bless you.

I attend Mass at a Monastery daily with Children, and St. Theophan the Recluse was a monk. 

The Monks love my Children coming, and if you don't believe it you can come visit me and ask them yourself.

You dare to suggest that I wish to deprive other Christians of graces and then wonder why I am indignant at you!!!

Perhaps if you went to Mass alone for a change and devoted all your attention to the reason you are there in the first place, you might get off your 'oh so reasonable but really quite catty' high horse.

And the monasteries of today are an inspiration to us all - not. 
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.

awkwardcustomer

Quote from: orate on October 07, 2019, 10:01:06 AM
Please show us Church documents to back up your assertion that Holy Mother the Church thinks that infants and toddlers should not attend Mass, and that it is not efficacious for them to do so.

Please show me documentation to show that Holy Mother Church thinks that babies and toddlers SHOULD be at Mass.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.

awkwardcustomer

Quote from: coffeeandcigarette on October 07, 2019, 09:13:16 AM
I think a women who comes, humbly, MODESTLY, and reverently to Mass, and spends the time praying, offering up her children and husband to God, and teaching her babies about Our Lord is getting all the graces available.

Why do you think that? 

Why don't you think that a women who comes, humbly, MODESTLY, and reverently to Mass, and spends all the time praying and adoring Our Lord is getting all the graces available, offering up her loved ones of course, but being able to devote ALL her attention to the very reason she is there - the Holy Sacrifice of the Altar?

Does Our Lord demand that you teach your babies about Him while at Mass?  Why do you think it is necessary to do this when you could, instead, teach them about Our Lord at some other time, leaving you free to be wholly absorbed in Him while at Mass?

Surely it should be your priority to be being entirely present for Our Lord at Mass.  Everything else flows from that.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.

awkwardcustomer

Quote from: MundaCorMeum on October 07, 2019, 10:35:27 AM
Many of us have given anecdotes to show that, yes, even babies and toddlers can be quiet for the duration of Mass.  Yet, awkward keeps insisting that it is impossible.  I've asked before, if the babies and toddlers are quiet, what is the problem with them being there? 

If babies and toddlers are quiet, then there is no problem with them being at Mass, or at the theatre, or at the cinema, or in a library.  Except they're not quiet, are they, which is why they are only at Mass (these days) and not the theatre, cinema or library.

Your anecdotes are different from mine.  You keep insisting that babies and toddlers can be quiet at Mass, but do you mean YOUR babies and toddlers?  At any rate, in 20 years I have barely known it to be the case that the presence of babies and toddlers at Mass didn't inevitably result in crying and disturbance for the majority of the Mass.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.

dellery

Quote from: diaduit on October 07, 2019, 03:57:00 AM

Everyone who has posted on this thread DOES the same as munda, we take our children outside if they are making noise.  I have repeated here and previous thread about standing in a freezing damp vestibule time and again (weather here is awful in winter) and nursed a 15lb baby in my arms while standing to avoid causing a disturbance to others. 
Why are you selective about who is doing their best?

Why are you selective about who is dishing out the cattiness, its on both sides?



I have empathised with Awkward and still do about noise sensitivity and in previous thread as I have it too, there is no empathy coming back, its stay at home with your babies and toddlers or leave them at home with someone, why can she not accept the best and only option for those who cannot leave kids at home, which is what we are doing now---- removing a fussy baby during mass so as not to disturb the peace (this gets sidelined during the thread all the time), its a WORKABLE solution in the current situation.  Can she not accept that as an option?  It works fine in our church and again yesterday, the peace was surreal even with lots of little children.

Why are you taking this so personally?
I never said, nor implied, that you, or others in this discussion, are personally disturbing people at mass by not attending to your children. I'm talking about how, in general, screaming, ill behaved children are permitted by their parents to disrupt mass in many places.

I'm also not being selective, and stated I didn't agree with awkwardcustomer's position here, but can sympathize with it. What's your problem with this?

Many of us assist at mass in old chapels with acoustics meant to amplify the choir because microphones weren't invented, or in wide use, when they were built. When a parent will sit in the pew with their crying children echoing all over the place, in chapels such as these, If you're sitting close enough it will hurt your ears and possibly even give you a headache. This is a problem where I normally assist at, and it's a problem for other people as well, so stop trying to delegitimize this issue. From what you say you're not even guilty of the behavior I'm describing, so what's your problem here? Is it that I didn't join the crowd in insinuating awkwardcustomer is a crazy cat lady casting hatred on whimpering children?

And so what you cant change Awkwardcustomer's mind? Deal with it.
Blessed are those who plant trees under whose shade they will never sit.

The closer you get to life the better death will be; the closer you get to death the better life will be.

Nous Defions
St. Phillip Neri, pray for us.

orate

#341
delete
I love Thee, Jesus, my love.  Grant me the grace to love Thee always, and do with me what Thou wilt.

"Blame yourself, then change yourself.  That's where we all need to start."   Dr. Louis IX (aka "Dr. Walty")

orate

#342
Quote from: awkwardcustomer on October 07, 2019, 05:37:31 PM
Quote from: orate on October 07, 2019, 10:01:06 AM
Please show us Church documents to back up your assertion that Holy Mother the Church thinks that infants and toddlers should not attend Mass, and that it is not efficacious for them to do so.

Please show me documentation to show that Holy Mother Church thinks that babies and toddlers SHOULD be at Mass.


I'm done with this topic.  Awkwardcustomer let's just accept that you and I will never agree about this.  Neither of us was around for the first 2000 years of the Church, so both of our opinions are just conjecture.  We can each come up with what we think is proper documentation until the cows come home and we will not convince each other.

And this is for all of us--not just awkwardcustomer. The level of cattiness and name calling---and I include myself in this--is a scandal (in the true meaning of the word, ie. to lead others to sin) to all who have followed this and the other thread on this topic.

This is why I am finished.

Not just with this topic, but perhaps with the entire forum itself.

I just don't find these kinds of cat fights to be edifying, and I would not wish to lead others to sin.

God's ways are not our ways.  I suppose we'll find out what is truly God's Will in all of this when we see Him face to face.
I love Thee, Jesus, my love.  Grant me the grace to love Thee always, and do with me what Thou wilt.

"Blame yourself, then change yourself.  That's where we all need to start."   Dr. Louis IX (aka "Dr. Walty")

Non Nobis

Quote from: orate on October 07, 2019, 06:58:56 PM

This is why I am finished.

Not just with this topic, but perhaps with the entire forum itself.

I just don't find these kinds of cat fights to be edifying, and I would not wish to lead others to sin.

God's ways are not our ways.  I suppose we'll find out what is truly God's Will in all of this when we see Him face to face.

Don't leave, at least not the forum. Stay around to be a good example, orate.

The cat fights are horrible, but it seems to me that there are a lot of good intentions on both sides too.

This forum is a lot more edifying than 99.9% of the internet, despite its flaws.  I can understand why some leave, when the flaws are just too much to handle. But staying to make it even much more edifying (or less unedifying) is another option to consider. Think of all the truly edifying posts that ARE posted.
[Matthew 8:26]  And Jesus saith to them: Why are you fearful, O ye of little faith? Then rising up he commanded the winds, and the sea, and there came a great calm.

[Job  38:1-5]  Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. [4] Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Jesus, Mary, I love Thee! Save souls!

Gardener

Quote from: awkwardcustomer on October 07, 2019, 05:37:31 PM
Quote from: orate on October 07, 2019, 10:01:06 AM
Please show us Church documents to back up your assertion that Holy Mother the Church thinks that infants and toddlers should not attend Mass, and that it is not efficacious for them to do so.

Please show me documentation to show that Holy Mother Church thinks that babies and toddlers SHOULD be at Mass.

It's a logical deduction from the requirement of their parents to be at Mass and no specific proscription to the contrary or release from the obligation therein, with the exception of illness. Since you're not a liberal democrat, I assume you don't count infancy as an illness, though you could have fooled most of us.


"If anyone does not wish to have Mary Immaculate for his Mother, he will not have Christ for his Brother." - St. Maximilian Kolbe