My liberal church finally went over the edge.

[bigbadtrad]

So those converts... the Church's future you say... they gonna shack up with TFP and not look at a woman or man except to spit vitriol about the quality of their cupboard's china, or get married and have kids?

To have even a hope of a resolution to the current crisis, the Church needs Tradition and Tradition needs conversions.

The demographic solution won't work, isn't working, hasn't worked.

Conversions are the future of the Church and Tradition isn't making any.

In my view, the Mass is where the Church's future can be found.  God is going to save His Church.  His members are not.  They are going to be saved by His Church through being members of His Church.  So each members' duty should be to do everything in their power to protect and preserve the Mass in all its beauty, glory and reverential, awe-inspiring silence and sanctity.

Sanctity is where the future of the Church is. The Mass, sacraments, and everything traditional existed before Vatican II and yet the Church was a mess. Archbishop Lefebvre recognized even society would collapse with tradition but it would have been slower.

The Mass is the center of our sanctity, but don't look for it in the silence of the Mass, but in the holiness of a soul that receives Him in great charity.

St. Alphonsus teaches: "Were fathers or mothers to lead  a  life  of  piety  and  continual  prayer,  and  to  communicate  every  day,  they  should  be damned if they neglected the care of their children."

[orate]

God is going to save His Church.  His members are not.  They are going to be saved by His Church through being members of His Church.

This.  And it includes even the very youngest members.

[orate]

The Mass is the center of our sanctity, but don't look for it in the silence of the Mass, but in the holiness of a soul that receives Him in great charity.

And this.

[dellery]

This isn't addressed to anybody in particular.

Let's be honest here.

Nobody in this thread, that I'm aware of, has indicated the hope of seeing children marginalized, indicated that children are not valuable, or implied children dont need the Sacraments.

So please drop the courageous white knight coming to rescue the children schtick.

[awkwardcustomer]

Behold, then, the most proper method of assisting with fruit at holy Mass. Go to the church as if you were going to Calvary, and behave yourself before the altar as before the throne of God, in company with the holy Angels. See what modesty, what reverence, what attention, are requisite from us in order that we may carry away the fruit and the blessings which Almighty God is wont to bestow on him who honors with devout demeanor these sacred mysteries.

From 'The Hidden Treasure of the Mass', St Leonard of Port Muarice, Ch 2 on the Devout Method of Hearing Mass.

[bigbadtrad]

Let's be honest here.

Nobody in this thread, that I'm aware of, has indicated the hope of seeing children marginalized, indicated that children are not valuable, or implied children dont need the Sacraments.

So please drop the courageous white knight coming to rescue the children schtick.

Ok let's be honest. Of course that's what is implied. They pay lip service to what you say, but in reality they are against it.

The complainers see everything affecting them, and their sanctity, and their holiness and everything must be eradicated.

Maybe you're not aware of these types of people but they exist. Usually women (rarely a man, but it does happen) over the age of 60, never had kids, and very belligerent to everyone.

The same people who complain about a few sounds from kids (not screaming banshees) are the same people who complain about everything in the church. They complain to the priests about all the little things that upsets them. They stare at a person coughing, so it's not just kids.

They rarely if ever give the benefit of the doubt to people, and are constantly upset at everything but themselves.

They would be more upset during a 1st Holy Communion if a child slipped and fell down and made a ton of sound than feel bad that they were embarrassed and they were about to receive Our Lord and have sympathy on the child, because such people have no empathy.

It's the same person who sees someone say "I'm so happy to hear such great stories about children" and respond by saying they are liberal and modern.

Yes, the implication is clear.

[awkwardcustomer]

Let's be honest here.

Nobody in this thread, that I'm aware of, has indicated the hope of seeing children marginalized, indicated that children are not valuable, or implied children dont need the Sacraments.

So please drop the courageous white knight coming to rescue the children schtick.

Ok let's be honest. Of course that's what is implied. They pay lip service to what you say, but in reality they are against it.

The complainers see everything affecting them, and their sanctity, and their holiness and everything must be eradicated.

Maybe you're not aware of these types of people but they exist. Usually women (rarely a man, but it does happen) over the age of 60, never had kids, and very belligerent to everyone.

The same people who complain about a few sounds from kids (not screaming banshees) are the same people who complain about everything in the church. They complain to the priests about all the little things that upsets them. They stare at a person coughing, so it's not just kids.

They rarely if ever give the benefit of the doubt to people, and are constantly upset at everything but themselves.

They would be more upset during a 1st Holy Communion if a child slipped and fell down and made a ton of sound than feel bad that they were embarrassed and they were about to receive Our Lord and have sympathy on the child, because such people have no empathy.

It's the same person who sees someone say "I'm so happy to hear such great stories about children" and respond by saying they are liberal and modern.

Yes, the implication is clear.

Yet another Social Justice Warrior type argument from bigbadtrad.

In other words - no argument at all, just derision and insult.  Not to mention attributing one's own faults to others.  For example, you said of people like me - "They rarely if ever give the benefit of the doubt to people, and are constantly upset at everything but themselves."

Meanwhile you, bigbadtrad, have rarely if ever given the benefit of the doubt to anyone on this thread who offers an argument counter to yours, and have been constantly upset at everything but yourself.

It's called projection.

[dellery]

Ok let's be honest. Of course that's what is implied. They pay lip service to what you say, but in reality they are against it.

The complainers see everything affecting them, and their sanctity, and their holiness and everything must be eradicated.

Maybe you're not aware of these types of people but they exist. Usually women (rarely a man, but it does happen) over the age of 60, never had kids, and very belligerent to everyone.

The same people who complain about a few sounds from kids (not screaming banshees) are the same people who complain about everything in the church. They complain to the priests about all the little things that upsets them. They stare at a person coughing, so it's not just kids.

They rarely if ever give the benefit of the doubt to people, and are constantly upset at everything but themselves.

They would be more upset during a 1st Holy Communion if a child slipped and fell down and made a ton of sound than feel bad that they were embarrassed and they were about to receive Our Lord and have sympathy on the child, because such people have no empathy.

It's the same person who sees someone say "I'm so happy to hear such great stories about children" and respond by saying they are liberal and modern.

Yes, the implication is clear.

You have no way of possibly knowing any of the accusations you've included in this strawman.

Besides, from what I've gathered, people get more irritated at the parents than at their loud misbehaving children.

The fact of the matter is that many people are too weak and lazy to properly discipline their children. Then they bring their know-no-consequence children in public and imply that the onus is on everybody else to tolerate them. 

[awkwardcustomer]

mistake

[diaduit]

Ok let's be honest. Of course that's what is implied. They pay lip service to what you say, but in reality they are against it.

The complainers see everything affecting them, and their sanctity, and their holiness and everything must be eradicated.

Maybe you're not aware of these types of people but they exist. Usually women (rarely a man, but it does happen) over the age of 60, never had kids, and very belligerent to everyone.

The same people who complain about a few sounds from kids (not screaming banshees) are the same people who complain about everything in the church. They complain to the priests about all the little things that upsets them. They stare at a person coughing, so it's not just kids.

They rarely if ever give the benefit of the doubt to people, and are constantly upset at everything but themselves.

They would be more upset during a 1st Holy Communion if a child slipped and fell down and made a ton of sound than feel bad that they were embarrassed and they were about to receive Our Lord and have sympathy on the child, because such people have no empathy.

It's the same person who sees someone say "I'm so happy to hear such great stories about children" and respond by saying they are liberal and modern.

Yes, the implication is clear.

You have no way of possibly knowing any of the accusations you've included in this strawman.

Besides, from what I've gathered, people get more irritated at the parents than at their loud misbehaving children.

The fact of the matter is that many people are too weak and lazy to properly discipline their children. Then they bring their know-no-consequence children in public and imply that the onus is on everybody else to tolerate them.

This is simply untrue in any of the Trad masses I have been to.  Includes, Australia, Holland and France and includes the 3 major centres in Ireland Dublin, Cork and my own in the midlands.

I cannot name one parent in my head that abandons their duty of discipline during mass.  Not one.

[lauermar]

Today's reading comes from the Gospel MT 18:1-5, 10

The disciples approached Jesus and said,
"Who is the greatest in the Kingdom of heaven?"
He called a child over, placed it in their midst, and said,
"Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children,
you will not enter the Kingdom of heaven.
Whoever humbles himself like this child
is the greatest in the Kingdom of heaven.
And whoever receives one child such as this in my name receives me.

"See that you do not despise one of these little ones,
for I say to you that their angels in heaven
always look upon the face of my heavenly Father."

[bigbadtrad]

You have no way of possibly knowing any of the accusations you've included in this strawman.

Of course I do. I've seen at least 40 trad chapels. I know over 100 trad priests. We all know the type. It's a joke because we speak about "that 1 crazy person" and it's usually the same type found in half to 33% of the chapels, and less frequently in diocesan indults but more frequently with societies of apostolic life.

If you think I'm wrong go ask your trad priest. He'll either lament or start laughing because they've all gone through it. They joke about this type of person because they make everyone miserable.

I did say "usually" but she can reply if she likes (she won't except to say SNOWFLAKE or SJW).

I mean anyone who finds fault with someone enjoying stories of children in Mass as a liberal IS that type of person.

BTW you said I had no way of knowing about this strawman but you finished your post with your own.

[MundaCorMeum]

So, Aeternitus, I did look up that book and started on a few sections.  I'll give you my honest opinion, but keep in mind that I do struggle alot with scrupulosity.  After reading even a few sections, I felt myself being pulled into despair, so I won't be finishing the book, even though I think St. Leonard is right in extolling the beauty and treasure in the Mass.  I just know, based on previous spiritual guidance from a priest, that some books are not good for my scrupulosity, and I can tell this will be one of them.  I also apologize in advance, because my thoughts are somewhat all over the place.  Hope you can hear with me through my thought process

Anyway, my very first thought after reading about the great lengths that St. Francis de Sales went to attend not only Sunday Mass but daily Mass really struck me.  It told me that merely having young children or a long distance to drive (in my comfortable, air conditioned Yukon, no less  ), definitely does not excuse us from attending Mass.  On the contrary, I should be doing everything I possibly can to go to Mass, even if it means bringing all of my children along and making sure they know how to be still and quiet. 


It also sounds like the book was saying that if we don't take every possible pain to get to Mass - Sunday AND daily Mass - then, we clearly don't recognize the treasure in it or love our Lord very much.  Because if we did, we would never miss an opportunity, regardless of the obstacles.  I thought that was a little extreme, personally.  But, like I said, I tend to scrupulosity, so my lens of perception is kind of defective to start with.  Perhaps he was using exaggeration to prove his point, similar to how Our Lord said we should cut out our eyes and hands if they cause us to sin, rather than being literal.

On the flip side, if we do attend Mass, we should be completely and utterly silent, no matter what.   One quote said that a priest didn't even tolerate coughing or the sound of breathing. 

Given all that, I don't see how anyone should dare to attend Mass, as even adults are incapable of making zero sound, however slight.  It made me think of the times when there were no pews.  How was that allowed?  From what I understand, it was done that way so people could have freedom of movement and posture.  That wouldn't foster stillness or complete silence, as people make slight noises as the move from standing to kneeling to lying prostrate; or if the walk from one place to another.  Pews seem more conducive to being completely still, yet those are considered Protestant innovations. 

So, basically, I walked away feeling damned if I do, damned if I don't.  Bring them along, and I'm a child-centered feminist who is displeasing to God.  Stay home with them, because I have no feasible way of leaving them behind, and I don't love the Mass enough to overcome that obstacle.

Honestly, I still stand by what I've said earlier in the discussion.  I do not think bringing children (of any age) is the problem.  The problem is when parents exert no effort at teaching, correcting, and expecting proper behavior of their children.  And they goes for at Mass or anywhere.  It's not expected of the parents by society at large, so the motivation to do so is pretty low.  I think of priests would raise the bar and teach the laity about the importance of reverence and quiet at Mass, then more people would fall in line, including parents and children.  Of course, it wouldn't solve things completely.  We are dealing with fallen human nature, and sometimes you just have to sneeze. We can't let perfection be the enemy of good; and virtue lies in the balance between two extremes.  We're all a work in progress, so we need to be understanding and compassionate in that regard....that applies to all people.

[MundaCorMeum]

There alot of grammatical errors in my previous post; sorry for that.  I don't have time to edit it.

[mikemac]

Let's be honest here.

Nobody in this thread, that I'm aware of, has indicated the hope of seeing children marginalized, indicated that children are not valuable, or implied children dont need the Sacraments.

So please drop the courageous white knight coming to rescue the children schtick.

Ok let's be honest. Of course that's what is implied. They pay lip service to what you say, but in reality they are against it.

The complainers see everything affecting them, and their sanctity, and their holiness and everything must be eradicated.

Maybe you're not aware of these types of people but they exist. Usually women (rarely a man, but it does happen) over the age of 60, never had kids, and very belligerent to everyone.

The same people who complain about a few sounds from kids (not screaming banshees) are the same people who complain about everything in the church. They complain to the priests about all the little things that upsets them. They stare at a person coughing, so it's not just kids.

They rarely if ever give the benefit of the doubt to people, and are constantly upset at everything but themselves.

They would be more upset during a 1st Holy Communion if a child slipped and fell down and made a ton of sound than feel bad that they were embarrassed and they were about to receive Our Lord and have sympathy on the child, because such people have no empathy.

It's the same person who sees someone say "I'm so happy to hear such great stories about children" and respond by saying they are liberal and modern.

Yes, the implication is clear.

And they are generally more disruptive in Mass with their attitude than a little whimper from a child.  If you are paying attention to the Mass you don't even hear a little whimper from a child.