Author Topic: Admonishing vs Judging  (Read 201 times)

Online ServusMariae

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Admonishing vs Judging
« on: December 06, 2017, 11:42:10 AM »
can someone tell me what's the difference between admonishing a sinner versus judging? Because in the culture of my country the 2 acts are seen as interchangeably offensive, (i.e - If I were to admonish I will be spat upon as a judgy, "holier-than-thou", "must-be-avoided-at-all-costs" kind of person).

I need a clear definition of both acts.

(bonus: I hope I can gain better enlightenment of the context behind the "who am I to judge" phrase ... Our Lord commanded that we are to judge no one ... But when's the right time to judge & not to judge?)
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 11:53:28 AM by ServusMariae »
 

Offline Gardener

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Re: Admonishing vs Judging
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2017, 11:53:37 AM »
So, essentially you are asking about Fraternal Correction.

Read this:
http://www.olmcfssp.org/cms/images/uploads/Insert_1.28_.07_.pdf
"And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we are ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?" - St. Maximilian Kolbe
 
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Offline Miriam_M

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Re: Admonishing vs Judging
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2017, 12:24:07 PM »
If no one is allowed to admonish another, on the basis of the admonisher's own imperfection, then zero admonishing should ever occur by human beings on earth, so clearly it is irrational for anyone to demand that imperfect beings refrain from admonishment. (Argument from Reason)

Second, one can look upon admonishment as the action of the Third Person of the Trinity, in that human beings are often merely the temporary, even unaware messengers of danger or reproof.  That is, I have on occasion been admonished by people who were the first to admit they were living a sinful and unrepentant lifestyle, yet they justly admonished me about a particular action or behavior of mine.  Similarly, I have sometimes realized after the fact that I, too, was an unwitting messenger of danger or correction, even of a stranger, and clearly without "divine credentials" to do so. (Argument from Experience)

To judge the objective evil or goodness of a real or hypothetical action is to engage a trained mind, for which God gave us --created in us-- that very ability.  If we lacked the intellectual ability to discern good from evil, we would also lack the moral authority to make judgments, including of our own actions.  This power and individual authority is distinguished from unauthorized judgment over the subjective state of the actor. We can judge only our own subjective state of culpability or blamelessness regarding objective evil. (Second Argument from Reason; First Argument from Scripture)

I would continue, but work calls....
 
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Offline Carleendiane

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Re: Admonishing vs Judging
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2017, 12:40:56 PM »
That^^^^^is very useful, Miriam.
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Offline Graham

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Re: Admonishing vs Judging
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2017, 12:49:31 PM »
can someone tell me what's the difference between admonishing a sinner versus judging? Because in the culture of my country the 2 acts are seen as interchangeably offensive, (i.e - If I were to admonish I will be spat upon as a judgy, "holier-than-thou", "must-be-avoided-at-all-costs" kind of person).

I need a clear definition of both acts.

To put it in colloquial terms, judging is generally an internal act where you reach a conclusion about something, in this case that a person is acting sinfully, or has so acted or is seriously considering it. Admonishment would be a follow up to judgment where you personally rebuke the person over it. Advice, discussion, warnings, even very firm, aren't admonishment. Because people are touchy and stubborn there's a risk of making things worse, you should be pretty darn sure that your judgment is right and you're the right person for the task. Temperaments are different, some are inclined to overdo it, others to avoid it at all costs. That sweet spot where you have a good sense of proportion is impossible to define and often comes from experience (and making mistakes).
 

Offline Livenotonevil

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Re: Admonishing vs Judging
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2017, 02:15:06 PM »
When it comes to that particular verse, I recommend reading Saint John Chrysostom's commentary on it:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/200123.htm

There's also Saint Augustine's commentary on the Sermon of the Mount (Chapter 18)

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/16012.htm
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
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Online ServusMariae

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Re: Admonishing vs Judging
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2017, 10:40:21 PM »
To put it in colloquial terms, judging is generally an internal act where you reach a conclusion about something, in this case that a person is acting sinfully, or has so acted or is seriously considering it. Admonishment would be a follow up to judgment where you personally rebuke the person over it. Advice, discussion, warnings, even very firm, aren't admonishment. Because people are touchy and stubborn there's a risk of making things worse, you should be pretty darn sure that your judgment is right and you're the right person for the task. Temperaments are different, some are inclined to overdo it, others to avoid it at all costs. That sweet spot where you have a good sense of proportion is impossible to define and often comes from experience (and making mistakes).

I admit - I am a natural INFJ with the deepest passion for the salvation of souls (from the Pope down to the souls of my beloved enemies), so much until I overdo it & end up with a conga line of angry people waiting to stone me at any moment up to this day. Such is why I recourse to this forum as my only means of survival for now (having cut off all contact with virtually everyone in my country).
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 10:43:47 PM by ServusMariae »
 

Offline Graham

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Re: Admonishing vs Judging
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2017, 11:19:32 PM »
To put it in colloquial terms, judging is generally an internal act where you reach a conclusion about something, in this case that a person is acting sinfully, or has so acted or is seriously considering it. Admonishment would be a follow up to judgment where you personally rebuke the person over it. Advice, discussion, warnings, even very firm, aren't admonishment. Because people are touchy and stubborn there's a risk of making things worse, you should be pretty darn sure that your judgment is right and you're the right person for the task. Temperaments are different, some are inclined to overdo it, others to avoid it at all costs. That sweet spot where you have a good sense of proportion is impossible to define and often comes from experience (and making mistakes).

I admit - I am a natural INFJ with the deepest passion for the salvation of souls (from the Pope down to the souls of my beloved enemies), so much until I overdo it & end up with a conga line of angry people waiting to stone me at any moment up to this day. Such is why I recourse to this forum as my only means of survival for now (having cut off all contact with virtually everyone in my country).

Who really knows. You could be doing a LOT of good. I have the sense that when I'm in the state of grace, and my spiritual life is strong, Providence is with me and even what may look like a big mistake will work out. So just try to keep as pure an intention towards charity as you can.
 
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Offline bigbadtrad

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Re: Admonishing vs Judging
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2017, 09:58:37 AM »
What people in society call judging is in fact a judgement of their own. They've judged you mean and not worthy of listening to while doing what exactly what they're accusing you of.

You are allowed to judge actions, just not intentions unless they are known to you.

The 1st spiritual work of mercy is to correct sinners. If they repel you, or disdain you that's fine, but you did your job. St. John Vianney on a few occasions would start his sermon by saying he had to tell his faithful or he would suffer, but after that it was on them as he did his job.

You have an obligation to correct someone who is in error and you see any hope whatsoever they'll listen. That's not to say to run into a bar and start screaming "drunkards!" but if there is any chance of hope.

If they scream judgmental, that's what all of society is using as a defense mechanism to deflect from the truth of the matter. This even happened to me with a young man in a trad church chewing gum and talking and he said I was judging him, so it's not your country it's everywhere. When I calmly said "by the look of your face and anger in your eyes it seems you're doing some judging too wouldn't you agree?" it made him think and then I continued by explaining I wasn't judging the character of his soul, but his actions and it was an act of charity, not anger, that motivated me and then I thanked him for going to Mass and asked him to pray for me.
If neo-Catholics accuse trads of Protestantism but modern Popes praise Protestants does that mean we should be praised too?

Never believe a neo-Catholic's logic until you have photographic proof of them praying with Protestants