Author Topic: The Fossil Record and the Fall of Darwin’s Last Icon  (Read 566 times)

Offline Quaremerepulisti

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Re: The Fossil Record and the Fall of Darwin’s Last Icon
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2017, 08:08:54 AM »
As someone who has worked all his life in scientific research I don't trust anything scientists say.

Then I highly doubt you've actually worked all of your life in scientific research. At the very least I highly doubt your objectivity.

Given the various scandals of false research, fabricated results, and peer "reviewed" papers which aren't worth the paper they're printed on, why would you expect us to believe scientists are objective?

Objectivity is a nice buzzword, but let's not kid ourselves -- no one, and I mean no one, is truly objective.

Not only that, but true objectivity is in fact impossible in many cases.

There are serious problems today with many things in the way science is currently done, in many fields of research.  The temptation to "cheat" is sometimes just too strong for some; and, moreover, some scientists lack the necessary training for what they do (e.g. publishing neuroimaging papers without understanding the relevant statistics).  All this is in theory fixable of course.  But scientists are not machines, but human, and have subjective attachments and aversions.  The best scientists can do is realize that these biases are there, but they can't make them go away.  The good scientists do realize this and say that the most important thing is not to be fooled, and the easiest person to fool is yourself.

Over and above the human failings of scientists, no one has come up with a really good philosophical grounding for science (one would need to solve the problem of induction to do that).  There's no absolutely solid philosophical basis for the claim that, tomorrow morning, when you think you are backing your car out of the garage, you will not actually move forward and crash into the garage wall.  Science categorizes regularities in nature, true, but there is always a possibility, however slight, that an error is made.  True, the regularities in nature derive from the nature of things (e.g. if the nature of things were different so would be the regularities) but there isn't a neat one-to-one correspondence so that one can deduce the nature of things from regularities in nature.  Now philosophers and epistemologists will claim "physical certainty" for the case of the car but there is no real basis for the claim.  Nevertheless, in fact our cars do always go backwards when we put the gear in reverse, every single time.

That being said, a young earth is simply massively inconsistent with the evidence we have.  Make of it what you will.
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Offline Greg

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Re: The Fossil Record and the Fall of Darwin’s Last Icon
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2017, 09:26:27 AM »
As someone who has worked all his life in scientific research I don't trust anything scientists say.

Then I highly doubt you've actually worked all of your life in scientific research. At the very least I highly doubt your objectivity.

He has.  I've met Frank before.  He worked for .gov for 40+ years and wrote various published papers.
 

Offline Gardener

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Re: The Fossil Record and the Fall of Darwin’s Last Icon
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2017, 10:39:37 AM »
As someone who has worked all his life in scientific research I don't trust anything scientists say.

Then I highly doubt you've actually worked all of your life in scientific research. At the very least I highly doubt your objectivity.

Given the various scandals of false research, fabricated results, and peer "reviewed" papers which aren't worth the paper they're printed on, why would you expect us to believe scientists are objective?

Objectivity is a nice buzzword, but let's not kid ourselves -- no one, and I mean no one, is truly objective.

Not only that, but true objectivity is in fact impossible in many cases.

There are serious problems today with many things in the way science is currently done, in many fields of research.  The temptation to "cheat" is sometimes just too strong for some; and, moreover, some scientists lack the necessary training for what they do (e.g. publishing neuroimaging papers without understanding the relevant statistics).  All this is in theory fixable of course.  But scientists are not machines, but human, and have subjective attachments and aversions.  The best scientists can do is realize that these biases are there, but they can't make them go away.  The good scientists do realize this and say that the most important thing is not to be fooled, and the easiest person to fool is yourself.

Over and above the human failings of scientists, no one has come up with a really good philosophical grounding for science (one would need to solve the problem of induction to do that).  There's no absolutely solid philosophical basis for the claim that, tomorrow morning, when you think you are backing your car out of the garage, you will not actually move forward and crash into the garage wall.  Science categorizes regularities in nature, true, but there is always a possibility, however slight, that an error is made.  True, the regularities in nature derive from the nature of things (e.g. if the nature of things were different so would be the regularities) but there isn't a neat one-to-one correspondence so that one can deduce the nature of things from regularities in nature.  Now philosophers and epistemologists will claim "physical certainty" for the case of the car but there is no real basis for the claim.  Nevertheless, in fact our cars do always go backwards when we put the gear in reverse, every single time.

That being said, a young earth is simply massively inconsistent with the evidence we have.  Make of it what you will.

Until our IoT trajectory sees us computerizing the currently manual gear selection and some AI decides it's had enough of our crap.
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Offline GloriaPatri

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Re: The Fossil Record and the Fall of Darwin’s Last Icon
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2017, 10:40:26 AM »
As someone who has worked all his life in scientific research I don't trust anything scientists say.

Then I highly doubt you've actually worked all of your life in scientific research. At the very least I highly doubt your objectivity.

He has.  I've met Frank before.  He worked for .gov for 40+ years and wrote various published papers.

Then I don't trust his objectivity. To say that you don't trust anything that a scientist says is ludicrous. Literally every modern convenience is built upon scientific principles. Hell, the computer I'm typing this on is built upon such principles. To say that you don't trust scientists when it comes to science means that you can't even trust modern engineering. Which, I think we can all agree, is not the case.

That's not to say that there aren't problems within the scientific communities. The peer review process is far from perfect, and there are definitely journals that publish less than stellar papers and articles. But that hardly implies that all of modern science is bollocks.
 

Offline Greg

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Re: The Fossil Record and the Fall of Darwin’s Last Icon
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2017, 11:57:20 AM »

Then I don't trust his objectivity. To say that you don't trust anything that a scientist says is ludicrous.

Not a ludicrous as not understanding a literary device.

Are you autistic?
 
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Offline james03

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Re: The Fossil Record and the Fall of Darwin’s Last Icon
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2017, 04:04:01 PM »
The problem for evolution is on the micro scale.  Selection is plausible.  Man does this with cross breeding.  The problems comes with new mutations.  We are talking about proteins.

Proteins emerge as linear chains.  They then auto-assemble via folding into nano-machines.  What is more there are three separate folds, with the tertiary fold the final one.  The folding comes about due to electrical attraction, so sequencing is extremely critical.  You can not just zap out an atom as this would bust the fold and produce garbage.

The problems is compounded by orders of magnitude when you realize macro level changes would require numerous protein changes all at once, due to the fact that nano-machines contain multiple proteins.
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Offline Heinrich

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Re: The Fossil Record and the Fall of Darwin’s Last Icon
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2017, 05:21:34 PM »

Then I don't trust his objectivity. To say that you don't trust anything that a scientist says is ludicrous.

Not a ludicrous as not understanding a literary device.

Are you autistic?

Is hyperbole lying?
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Offline Greg

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Re: The Fossil Record and the Fall of Darwin’s Last Icon
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2017, 06:56:41 PM »
When he claims he scored 300 yes.
 
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Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: The Fossil Record and the Fall of Darwin’s Last Icon
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2017, 07:32:07 PM »
When he claims he scored 300 yes.
I've bowled a 140.
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Offline Carleendiane

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Re: The Fossil Record and the Fall of Darwin’s Last Icon
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2017, 08:40:24 PM »
I too scored that. No one was impressed, michael.
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Offline The Curt Jester

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Re: The Fossil Record and the Fall of Darwin’s Last Icon
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2017, 09:29:38 PM »
When he claims he scored 300 yes.
I've bowled a 140.

I've hit 300 twice.   Had witnesses both times who were more excited than I was.  So, yes, it is possible.

Or were you speaking of IQ scores?
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Offline Heinrich

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Re: The Fossil Record and the Fall of Darwin’s Last Icon
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2017, 09:48:34 PM »
When he claims he scored 300 yes.

So that should not be an issue with you.
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Offline Greg

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Re: The Fossil Record and the Fall of Darwin’s Last Icon
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2017, 04:24:05 AM »
There are lies and there are lies.

There are circumstances where you can justifiably kill or steal and neither are sins.  So, logically, there should be circumstances where you can lie.  The act is not ALL important.  It depends on the intention.

I am saying there are occasions where telling the truth would cause anger, jealously, fear, uncertainty, a huge waste of time and negative outcomes and where lying is necessary.

The end does not usually justify the means.  But sometimes it does.  Like War, self-defence or stealing food from a government storage warehouse in Venezuela today to feed your family.

I would think, for example, that it is morally justified to lie in war to deceive the enemy and thus win the war.
 
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Offline Frank

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Re: The Fossil Record and the Fall of Darwin’s Last Icon
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2017, 10:43:35 AM »
As someone who has worked all his life in scientific research I don't trust anything scientists say.

Then I highly doubt you've actually worked all of your life in scientific research. At the very least I highly doubt your objectivity.

He has.  I've met Frank before.  He worked for .gov for 40+ years and wrote various published papers.

Then I don't trust his objectivity. To say that you don't trust anything that a scientist says is ludicrous. Literally every modern convenience is built upon scientific principles. Hell, the computer I'm typing this on is built upon such principles. To say that you don't trust scientists when it comes to science means that you can't even trust modern engineering. Which, I think we can all agree, is not the case.

That's not to say that there aren't problems within the scientific communities. The peer review process is far from perfect, and there are definitely journals that publish less than stellar papers and articles. But that hardly implies that all of modern science is bollocks.

The devil often speaks the truth but I don't trust anything he says.