Theodicy: God hates everyone

[An aspiring Thomist]

Quare, not all Trads are Benzian Thomists and are not for the same reasons you give. I think it's fundamentally problematic to attack the Church because of conclusions which may be drawn from one school of thought within the Church on a controversial issue. I do agree with you that Trads need to think critically and can't just be content with a quote from Augustine or even Aquinas. Btw a while back I read a thread on predestination and grace started by you on Marin Sola's conception of sufficient grace which lead me to read some of Marin Sola's writings on the topic. I think he did a great job in modifying the Thomist system and I mostly agree with you on the issue. My point is there is greater diversity of thought in the Trad movement than you give it credit. I suppose it depends on how broadly you define it, but on this issue you will have a diversity of opinion in all Trad camps.

[Miriam_M]

I always find this question or concern to be principally man-focused and not God-focused.  It centers around fitting God into a box that I dictate, forcing Him to do things as I see fit, requiring He check all the boxes that I impose upon Him.

Quite obviously, although I'm quite late to the thread.   

[Miriam_M]

And this is Exhibit A of why traditionalism has no future.

Because a whole lot of it is crap, and there is no effort made whatsoever to separate the wheat from the chaff. 

Tradition is not "crap."  Whether particular individuals choose to define traditionalism as a movement in a way contrary to Tradition is another matter entirely.  Even then, it doesn't make the movement itself "crap."  It makes those particular individuals misguided, largely because (for the most part) they have been ill-catechized, just as ill-catechized as the majority of lay people (and some clergy) within the Novus Ordo-Vatican 2-reference-point church.

[Non Nobis]

... although I'm quite late to the thread.   

I'm guilty of neglecting this thread... but hope to get back to it tomorrow.

[Non Nobis]

well....blashphemh is unforgivable so it doesnt go away in confession.

No, it is forgivable. Besides your severe ailment, most of your problems with God being good most likely stem from misunderstandings like this. If you thinking of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit mentioned by Jesus, that is hard passage to interpret. But regardless, any sin is forgivable in confession as long as the Church grants the faculties since Jesus said whatever sins you forgive are forgiven to the Apostles.

Right. 

Ches, saying "God hates everyone" and absolutely meaning it is blasphemy, but I think saying it hypothetically (It SEEMS like God hates everyone because of all the suffering) would not be blasphemy.  Saying "God hates everyone" out of desperate suffering would objectively be blasphemy but probably not subjectively, and so not as great a sin. And even the mortal sin of blasphemy is forgivable.

[Non Nobis]

i dont know what it is like to be a Christian child... i never read such books growing up or understand what it means to have a catholic upbringing... i dont know what it is like growing up with this idea that God is always watching out for you and has angels surrounding you always helping you grow closer to Him.  all i know is that this image of God we give little children is the opposite image from the one that's in my head. 

I think not having a Christian childhood might easily make a difference in how well you would appreciate that God is loving.  I'm sorry you didn't have that, Ches.

instead of just saying "I dont agree with this thought" my brain can't just discard things it doesnt want so it stays there and so i keep worrying "what if this is true?" "what if that is true?" What if God hates everyone?  What if I'm not predestined?  so the construct of God in my own mind is like the sum of every "what if" about Gods justice.  He doesnt owe us mercy so I can't expect to ever receive that.  I get this sense that my guardian angel left my side? once the thought of that enters my mind i don't know how to get it out

It is a good thing that you RECOGNIZE that the "what if" and similar thoughts are false even though you can't get rid of them. Keep reminding yourself that they are false.

I don't think you are blaspheming; if you can't get rid of thoughts they are not deliberate. You can even offer up your own unintended worries.  (But you have so MUCH to offer up; I'm sorry life is so hard on you.)

[Carleendiane]

Listen to NON, Ches. She is humble and wise. She cares and gives you truth. You are very lucky to have her as an advocate. She is ever patient and ever caring! Yes, do listen to her.

[Kirin]

I'm rather enjoying the posts here, very interesting. But on one point I do know...

I think not having a Christian childhood might easily make a difference in how well you would appreciate that God is loving.  I'm sorry you didn't have that, Ches.

As someone who did have a devout, nay a Catholic childhood to the depth of outright fanaticism, I personally would say it has little impact. The sunday obligation and solemnities were not enough for my kin, daily mass was mandatory for most of my earlier years as was attendance at all parish devotionals such as rosaries, stations of the cross etc. Neither myself or my siblings practice the faith, though most of them left far later than I and unlike me most of them if pushed might suggest some vague notion of the existance of a benevolent higher power, though nothing reminiscent of anything from scripture or dogma.


If anything I've found converts to be far more fiery and reverent of their new faith than any cradle Catholic. It's new, it's a novelty and it's something they chose rather than something "done" to them they didn't get a say in.

[Non Nobis]

I'm rather enjoying the posts here, very interesting. But on one point I do know...

I think not having a Christian childhood might easily make a difference in how well you would appreciate that God is loving.  I'm sorry you didn't have that, Ches.

As someone who did have a devout, nay a Catholic childhood to the depth of outright fanaticism, I personally would say it has little impact. The sunday obligation and solemnities were not enough for my kin, daily mass was mandatory for most of my earlier years as was attendance at all parish devotionals such as rosaries, stations of the cross etc. Neither myself or my siblings practice the faith, though most of them left far later than I and unlike me most of them if pushed might suggest some vague notion of the existance of a benevolent higher power, though nothing reminiscent of anything from scripture or dogma.


If anything I've found converts to be far more fiery and reverent of their new faith than any cradle Catholic. It's new, it's a novelty and it's something they chose rather than something "done" to them they didn't get a say in.

A GOOD Catholic childhood (with good education) teaches a child about the love of Christ for us, especially for little children, and the love He shows by dying for us and giving Himself in Holy Communion.  A childhood full of nothing but Catholic externals (and missing a good education), or emphasizing God's justice but neglecting His mercy, may well do harm. But God knows how many people who leave the faith can really blame their childhood, and how many just rebelled against the gift they were given at baptism and its demands upon them.

Chestertonian converted from Judaism.  I think it is easier to know God's love if we believe in Christ, who is God but became one of us and loves us so. Being taught of this love from childhood might help us to believe more naturally in it.

Being a cradle Catholic (as I am) makes it easier to take the faith for granted, and so it can become less fiery if one does not nourish it. Being a convert is like being the prodigal son; coming home seems to be a bigger reason for celebration than staying home, even though the elder son at home all along was most blessed.  In either case, the grace of being a Catholic is a gift from God, and love and reverence should grow from it.

[MundaCorMeum]

Oh Non...I just really like you! 

[Gardener]

[snip]

If anything I've found converts to be far more fiery and reverent of their new faith than any cradle Catholic. It's new, it's a novelty and it's something they chose rather than something "done" to them they didn't get a say in.

As a convert, I can say that your thought here is incorrect...

Whether Convert or Cradle, every day is a process of conversion and opportunity for zeal and fortitude. External, unguided zeal is dangerous in a convert, though a necessity and natural, and does not trump the reality of experience in the Faith. I thank God for people like Heinrich who were there to temper my zeal when I converted, who spent long hours correcting my understanding in person, guiding my heart in a temperance in Faith, and demonstrating maturity in the Faith. I have a long way to go.

Let us not forget the fiery zeal of Sts. James and John, who wished to call down fire on the cities which rejected Christ and how He rebuked them for it. How St. John went from a "son of thunder" to his most oft-repeated sermon being, "Little children, love one another". Not exactly a 45 minute tirade from the pulpit, eh?

Zealousness is not necessarily demonstrated only in a battle cry and charging forward like an idiot. It is much better when it is patient in its manifestation, and suffering as Christ on the Cross.

Lastly, while entrance into the Church is not always the specific intention of a person such as in the case of infant Baptism, every year, month, day, hour, and minute is a choice in how one lives it: in unity of charity with God, or not.

Let us not forget that all of the early traitors AND martyrs of the Faith were converts at a time when converting was more certain of death and loss of earthly goods than not. Conversion, and thus Salvation, is a process. How often do we unsheath our swords in defense one minute and the next hear our thrice denial and the proverbial rooster crowing?

To make an analogy: anyone can volunteer to try out for Special Forces (assuming they meet basic criteria). Not very many stick it through. Their bodies hurt. They're tired. They're hungry. A warm bed sounds better than another 6 months of arduous training. The SF Instructors aren't impressed by volunteers. They're impressed by graduates. It's not the glamor of a green beret that carries a man through that, but the earning of it through a tempered zeal that resists the explosivity of being a neophyte and transfers it into the slow burn of fortitude to keep them warm on cold nights; from the carbonated sensation of being filled, to mastering hunger pangs as motivating to finish (no meal tastes good to a quitter); from the weariness of 48 hours with no sleep, to earning their rest (quitters know when they wake up they won't be in the course and there is no going back).