Author Topic: Why women lose the dating game  (Read 34556 times)

Offline OCLittleFlower

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Re: Why women lose the dating game
« Reply #90 on: January 03, 2013, 03:42:46 PM »
You are overly concerned with looks. Hence, you are overly offended at a man describing some woman as fat. If she's, fat she's fat. Nothing I can do about it. If I was a fat woman I would dislike being called a big woman.

This.

I'm fat at the moment.  I'm not BIG though -- I still have a small frame and I'm rather short.  There's just a bit of excess on that frame. ;)
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Offline Pæniteo

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Re: Why women lose the dating game
« Reply #91 on: January 03, 2013, 03:54:53 PM »
You need to lighten up. Fat people call fat people fat people.

Calling people fat is rude. Didn't your parents teach you any manners?

It is at least a verifiable physical condition.

And I think you have no basis to speak of "manners", especially on a fine point as admitting excess of subcutaneous adipose tissue (yes, I use that term in real life in speech too...it is quite a handy way to speak of this without emotionally charged words for some people).

 

Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: Why women lose the dating game
« Reply #92 on: January 03, 2013, 06:44:53 PM »
This was bound to happen in a world of seemingly consequence-free sex. Women can't spend their 20s giving out the milk for free and then expect people to want to buy the cow ten years later. Men are, of course, behaving in an equally disgusting manner, but again, when sex is seen as mere recreation and is divorced from its actual purpose, disgusting behavior from both men and women is to be expected.

As Mith said below your post, Penelope, I also agree.  However, I would fault men primarily. 

All too often, we hear about how "men are the leaders of society" and other such things, yet how willing are men to deal with the responsibility and consequences of this.  As you often hear trads say, a fish rots at the head.

Men need to be men and not put up with this crap.  And men SHOULDN'T be acting in the same fashion.  These men who were "woe is me I'm unsuccessful with women in my 20s" shouldn't be whoring around with women in their 30s.  And it shouldn't be accepted. 

But then, I would say, the problem doesn't stem quite completely from the women.  Look at the example of this guy:
Quote
That leaves a lot of beta men spending their 20s out in the cold. Greg, a 38-year-old writer from Melbourne, started adult life shy and lonely. ''In my 20s, the women had the total upper hand. They could make or break you with one look in a club or bar. They had the choice of men, sex was on tap and guys like me went home alone, red-faced, defeated and embarrassed. The girls only wanted to go for the cool guys, good looks, outgoing personalities, money, sporty types, the kind of guys who owned the room, while us quiet ones got ignored.''

He barely had a date through much of his 20s and gave up on women. But then he spent time overseas, gained more confidence, learnt how to dress well and hit his early 30s. ''I suddenly started to get asked out by women, aged 19 through to 40. The floodgates burst open for me. I actually dated five women at once, amazing my flatmates by often bedding three to four of my casual dates each week. It is a great time as a male in your 30s, when you start getting more female attention and sex than you could ever have dreamt of in your 20s.''

(Let's ignore the alpha/beta bull, that's just a dodge, and far too humorous).  If a woman is "making or breaking" a man with one look (he's obviously exaggerating, but still), then the man has issues - either with himself, his self-confidence, or his person.  He needs to get his crap together.  Could it be that he didn't garner a woman's attraction until he "spent time overseas, gained more confidence, and learnt how to dress well?"  Who wants to date a bland drip who can't put a set of clothing together to save his life?  The fact that he is in his 30s is probably far less of a factor in his (disgusting) behavior with women than is his travels and dressing well. 

I also had to laugh at this part of the article:
Quote
Talking to many women like her, it's intriguing how many look back on past relationships where they let good men get away because they weren't ready. American journalist Kate Bolick wrote recently in The Atlantic about breaking off her three-year relationship with a man she described as ''intelligent, good-looking, loyal and kind''. She acknowledged ''there was no good reason to end things'', yet, at the time, she was convinced something was missing in the relationship. That was 11 years ago. She's is now 39 and facing grim choices.

''We arrived at the top of the staircase,'' Bolick wrote, ''finally ready to start our lives, only to discover a cavernous room at the tail end of a party, most of the men gone already, some having never shown up - and those who remain are leering by the cheese table, or are, you know, the ones you don't want to go out with.''

Pardon me honey, but your life already started 39 years ago.  It's a shame and pity that these women bought into some notion that life starts once you've got a middle-level career job, a house, a degree, and a <whatever else>.  Your life is and has been going on since you started breathing.  Day to day, that's your life.  It's also woefully depressing that she left a guy because "something was missing."  How do you do that?  Just dumb. 

And of course, the article ends on an equally-disgusting note...
Quote
While many of his mates are playing the field, determined to enjoy this unexpected attention, Jamie is ready to settle down. He's very wary of Sex and the City types, women who are convinced they are so special, but he's confident he will soon find someone with her feet on the ground.

''I'm lucky,'' he says, ''to be in a buyer's market.''

How is one to respect his wife if he sees her as some cattle ready to be picked up?  Reading this article again, it's woefully depressing and saddening.  The way these people and our culture view the two sexes is so divorced from reality.  What can he get me and what can I get from him?  Can I pick up a 10 in my buyer's market?  That's not nearly a good basis for a healthy relationship with the opposite sex.  It's no wonder that these people are single, if their views are so....  bad.
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Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: Why women lose the dating game
« Reply #93 on: January 03, 2013, 06:46:58 PM »
Interesting observations, but it still isn't any consolation for those 20-something males who want to get married in the near future.

The 20-somethings need to get their crap together, then. 

Dress nicer, learn how to carry a conversation, be interesting and bring some worth to the table.

If all you do is play video games, DnD, watch cartoons and other sophomoric media, and drink, what worth and interest do you bring to the table? 
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Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: Why women lose the dating game
« Reply #94 on: January 03, 2013, 06:49:50 PM »
I wouldn't recommend getting so worked up about phenomena such as the alpha-beta binary, or the 1-to-10 hotness scale. Even if a man finds it too tacky to verbalize it, he will probably have thought it. It's part of the male's habit of quantifying and categorizing everything he sees. Plenty of women use the same systems, too, whether they want to admit it or not. My girlfriend and I casually bandy these terms about all the time in reference to other people (jokingly, of course). Women are especially adept at assessing whether a man is working, middle, or upper class within seconds of first contact.

Wouldn't you say this is part of the problem, though, HK? 

Men might be more visually-oriented, but does this make it OK?  Should men be objectifying women based on their appearance alone?  Or should we rather be looking at the whole person and treating them as people? 

I think this is more a consequence of our sex-driven culture which sees sex as something to be tossed and bandied about. 
Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side.  ~Treebeard, LOTR

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Offline Pæniteo

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Re: Why women lose the dating game
« Reply #95 on: January 03, 2013, 06:56:19 PM »
People try to see who is at fault for the breakdown, men forsaking their roles, women forsaking theirs, etc, and I think there is something forgotten.

Humans are animals. Without God, we are just rational animals, and most of the time, animals. If people do not have the grace of God and exercise reason only for the satisfaction of their passions, then it is more of a mathematical/biological thing than a truly human act.

So, when I see women and men in such a disordered situation, it is not a matter of who has the primary responsibility.

Judgement is by God by what is in one's soul, not what others have done. A man cannot use the scandalous behavior of women as an excuse for his own sins, and likewise, women cannot use the scandalous behavior of men as an excuse. Those who commit scandal will be judged for that, but those who take the occasion of sin to sin, will be judged accordingly as well.

Otherwise, the behavior outlined in the article is a reflection of biological reality. Human procreation urges are animal and we can observe it in other animals to various degrees.



 
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Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: Why women lose the dating game
« Reply #96 on: January 03, 2013, 06:57:06 PM »
I would not say I ascribe to a traditional view of how society should be, or how men and women should relate to one another.

Something I'd like to note here is that I think that the "traditional" American view of how society should be or how men and women should relate to one another is largely rooted in protestantism. Unfortunately, I see a number of trads on the internet buy into some view of the 1950s suburban American housewife and her office-working husband as being the model for an ideal marriage, but it's important to remember that mainstream American culture, at least the parts of it that stem from religion at all, stem from protestantism. We shouldn't really uphold that as an ideal, in my opinion.

It's not just on the Internet, Penelope.  The Fiftiesism bunk pervades traditionalism, it seems.  I was listening to a conference by Bp. Williamson from 1996 or 1997 and this question came up (about traditionalists and "Fiftiesism").  He has also (if I recall correctly) written against Fiftiesism as rector of St Thomas Aquinas Seminary in Winona, MN.

But, I agree.  Saying the 1950s is the last kind of cultural image we want to extol and follow.
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Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: Why women lose the dating game
« Reply #97 on: January 03, 2013, 07:01:23 PM »
Being shy and sensitive to others opinions holds a lot of people back.  If you can rationaize and internalise not caring about the people who reject you, you'll do better in the dating pool and in many other walks of life.

This is a lot more important than I think people take it for.  Practically speaking, we are in this world for, at most, 100 years.

If someone rejects you for no good reason, why bother or persist in dealing with them (assuming, of course, you're not being rejected for something objectively bad).  There are over 6 bln people on this planet.  Why let the thoughts and concerns of someone who means (practically) nothing to you affect your life. 

Now, I'm not saying be a sociopath.  But, why let other people pull and drag you down? 
Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side.  ~Treebeard, LOTR

Jesus son of David, have mercy on me.
 

Offline Pæniteo

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Re: Why women lose the dating game
« Reply #98 on: January 03, 2013, 07:04:38 PM »
This thread reminds me of 剩女. This is the Chinese term for women who put off marriage.

The law in China is a little different, the age of marriage is higher than we would think (20 for women, 22 for men) and most marry very quickly after those ages are reached. Women who do not, are called "剩女" (sheng nu), and have a very hard time finding a husband. I think the age where one could say is the tipping point is 27.

Chinese culture is not communist. It is Chinese and the family is very strong, however, modern developments have made people seeking education and careers (like in the USA) and putting off family until they are ready.

Even in a country where there are not enough women, women who reach a certain age, find it very difficult to find a husband.

Despite what culture and government may dictate, human biology has a very strong influence in how we act and develop.
 

Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: Why women lose the dating game
« Reply #99 on: January 03, 2013, 07:04:52 PM »
I believe it is natural and instinctive to notice if someone is attractive or not. I think it happens so quickly and automatically that many don't even notice they do it. However once it becomes a standard by which people measure each other's worth, which is usually the mentality behind the numbers game, it crosses a line from automatic human reaction to conscious fostering of sinful tendencies, whether it ends in lusting after a 10 or denigrating a 1 or even no outright sin, just a gradual loss of respect for others. It doesn't matter if they never meet that person or have any relationship with them, those men are still developing their own characters and it impacts them personally in a negative way. It is not a habit I would encourage my sons to develop, even keeping in mind that finding a wife who is attractive to them is a good and healthy pursuit. Women can be attractive, or not, but I'd hope they'd leave it at that.

I feel this is a very important consideration. 

If it's a tendency that men have, we shouldn't be promoting it. 

Recognizing someone's attractiveness (which is apparently biological in nature for fertility, youthfulness, and health) is not an issue.  Categorizing that and "ranking" them can lead to superficial relationships and, as Magnificat said, a loss of respect for others.  "Oh, why should I talk to that girl?  She's *only* a 5.  I only deal with 7s or above." 

That's just wrong. 

(Now I'm caught up and done posting here for a while!)
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Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: Why women lose the dating game
« Reply #100 on: January 03, 2013, 07:11:37 PM »
People try to see who is at fault for the breakdown, men forsaking their roles, women forsaking theirs, etc, and I think there is something forgotten.

Humans are animals. Without God, we are just rational animals, and most of the time, animals. If people do not have the grace of God and exercise reason only for the satisfaction of their passions, then it is more of a mathematical/biological thing than a truly human act.

So, when I see women and men in such a disordered situation, it is not a matter of who has the primary responsibility.

Judgement is by God by what is in one's soul, not what others have done. A man cannot use the scandalous behavior of women as an excuse for his own sins, and likewise, women cannot use the scandalous behavior of men as an excuse. Those who commit scandal will be judged for that, but those who take the occasion of sin to sin, will be judged accordingly as well.

Otherwise, the behavior outlined in the article is a reflection of biological reality. Human procreation urges are animal and we can observe it in other animals to various degrees.

Except I can see this tending towards something of a cop-out. 

Humans still have free will and the ability to make choices.  We can be given all the grace in the universe from God, yet if we do not accept that grace, it is all for naught. 

Men should not forsake their responsibilities and obligations.  They shouldn't be disgusting and pigs.  Women and men should be virtuous. 

You need all the pieces of the puzzle to be successful.  Without one, it will crumble, and I think modern society has showcased this.

I, of course, am not trying to "blame" someone to shirk my responsibilities.  However, recognizing what went wrong where and when can be helpful in figuring out where to go from there. 
Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side.  ~Treebeard, LOTR

Jesus son of David, have mercy on me.
 

Offline Pæniteo

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Re: Why women lose the dating game
« Reply #101 on: January 03, 2013, 07:19:00 PM »
People try to see who is at fault for the breakdown, men forsaking their roles, women forsaking theirs, etc, and I think there is something forgotten.

Humans are animals. Without God, we are just rational animals, and most of the time, animals. If people do not have the grace of God and exercise reason only for the satisfaction of their passions, then it is more of a mathematical/biological thing than a truly human act.

So, when I see women and men in such a disordered situation, it is not a matter of who has the primary responsibility.

Judgement is by God by what is in one's soul, not what others have done. A man cannot use the scandalous behavior of women as an excuse for his own sins, and likewise, women cannot use the scandalous behavior of men as an excuse. Those who commit scandal will be judged for that, but those who take the occasion of sin to sin, will be judged accordingly as well.

Otherwise, the behavior outlined in the article is a reflection of biological reality. Human procreation urges are animal and we can observe it in other animals to various degrees.

Except I can see this tending towards something of a cop-out. 

Humans still have free will and the ability to make choices.  We can be given all the grace in the universe from God, yet if we do not accept that grace, it is all for naught. 

Men should not forsake their responsibilities and obligations.  They shouldn't be disgusting and pigs.  Women and men should be virtuous. 

You need all the pieces of the puzzle to be successful.  Without one, it will crumble, and I think modern society has showcased this.

I, of course, am not trying to "blame" someone to shirk my responsibilities.  However, recognizing what went wrong where and when can be helpful in figuring out where to go from there.

When I interact with women, the blame is on men and how they should act. When I interact with men, the blame is on women, and how they should act.

My own personal experiences and perspective:

For me, I act how I choose, and men and women who are complaining about the perversions of each other find me confusing. This is how Catholics are called to live.

When a man in the world interacts with me, often this comes up. They do not think about what they do. They think what they do is normal, natural, and everyone does it. Then they meet me (in my personal experience...I am not some prophet for the world), and they see a man who does not engage in such behavioral despite much opportunity to do so, and a man who does not abuse himself and watch pornography, and a man who condemns such things. Men who would boast of their exploits and what they have seen, then either express disbelief or admiration. How many men have looked at me and regretted their pornography habit? Many men, when they ask me of this, have expressed admiration and a desire to be like that, although, not for long as far as I know.

Men, who I do think ultimately have the highest responsibility in this matter although I would not "blame" them more than women for the general social chaos, who engage in such behavior do so because they abdicate their will and given into their passions.
 
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Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: Why women lose the dating game
« Reply #102 on: January 03, 2013, 07:33:07 PM »
When a man in the world interacts with me, often this comes up. They do not think about what they do. They think what they do is normal, natural, and everyone does it. Then they meet me (in my personal experience...)

But then this just reinforces my point.

As more and more men have shirked responsibility, good role models have failed to be around as much. 

If there were more "proper" men, the average man would be confronted with his fallen nature more and realize the errors of his way.
Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side.  ~Treebeard, LOTR

Jesus son of David, have mercy on me.
 

Offline Pæniteo

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Re: Why women lose the dating game
« Reply #103 on: January 03, 2013, 07:38:22 PM »
When a man in the world interacts with me, often this comes up. They do not think about what they do. They think what they do is normal, natural, and everyone does it. Then they meet me (in my personal experience...)

But then this just reinforces my point.

As more and more men have shirked responsibility, good role models have failed to be around as much. 

If there were more "proper" men, the average man would be confronted with his fallen nature more and realize the errors of his way.

I think I understand your point. However, the responsibility and failure of men in this regard is more of a philosophical problem than an actual solution.

The failures of men and women feed each other, so that any individual is left without their own circumstance to sort out, and their particular situation is centered on their own choices, and what influenced them, which could be scandalous men, women, or everyone.

 

Offline The Harlequin King

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Re: Why women lose the dating game
« Reply #104 on: January 03, 2013, 07:56:20 PM »
Wouldn't you say this is part of the problem, though, HK? 

It is one of those "just sayin'" posts. I don't think anything is wrong with observing a person's sexuality as long as it's not distilled to only that. Sexuality is still part of a person's overall package.