SSPX bad liturgy?

[Kaesekopf]

Or because they went and got permission... I see the risk of going from resisting a genuinley problematic mass to liturgical protestantism 'Oh I like this better than that' and the issue of where to draw the line. In any event I'll trust the judgment of ABL/ the SSPX on this matter rather than other trad groups.

ABL wasn't infallible.  He wasn't even noted that much for "liturgy."

[Kaesekopf]

There is a specific reason FSSPX had no choice other than following 1962. You do not know it?

The only one I can think of is the farcical claim that they needed to "show fidelity" to Rome and use the "last missal that was wholly intact" (except, it wasn't, and Holy Week was absolutely butchered by the same barbarians who issued the NO!).

[Bonaventure]

There is a specific reason FSSPX had no choice other than following 1962. You do not know it?

No, there isn't.

[Bonaventure]

I mean, strictly speaking, the 1962 missal is but a pit stop en route to the liturgical revolution of 1970 - that the SSPX hasn't "gotten on-board" with the rest of traditionalism in restoring the traditional, authentic Roman liturgy (that prior to 1955) is pretty laughable.

Right, but they are stuck in a pit they dug for themselves. The kicked out "the Nine" for using the pre-1955 Missal. Now they feel they can't go back and admit they were wrong. Other groups have been able to adopt the pre-1955 Missal because they don't have the same stumbling block.

It's kind of the pre-Vatican II spirit of ultramontanism being carried on within the SSPX, "If we ever admit we were wrong about anything at any time, the sky will fall, the world will end."

Or because they went and got permission... I see the risk of going from resisting a genuinley problematic mass to liturgical protestantism 'Oh I like this better than that' and the issue of where to draw the line. In any event I'll trust the judgment of ABL/ the SSPX on this matter rather than other trad groups.

ABL initially allowed the Novus Ordo Mass at Econe.

His focus was always doctrine and formation of priests, not liturgy.

Things were always laissez faire until Cekada, Dolan, Jenkins, Skierka, Ahern, Collins, Kelly, Zapp, and Sanborn disrespected the Abp, stole property, sued, got 3 priests to leave 1 day after ordination, etc

[trentcath]

Or because they went and got permission... I see the risk of going from resisting a genuinley problematic mass to liturgical protestantism 'Oh I like this better than that' and the issue of where to draw the line. In any event I'll trust the judgment of ABL/ the SSPX on this matter rather than other trad groups.

ABL wasn't infallible.  He wasn't even noted that much for "liturgy."

Someone's got more extreme over time lol.

The reality is that if you accept the TLM is a valid catholic mass and pleasing to God there is no justification to go celebrating another one, at least without permission (and I have to say even then I find it a bit odd). We don't have a right to "the best mass" or "the mass I like most" we have a right to a valid catholic mass pleasing to God. Anything else inevitably devolves into private judgment and subjectivity, which is likely why the SSPX didn't go down that route.

[trentcath]

I mean, strictly speaking, the 1962 missal is but a pit stop en route to the liturgical revolution of 1970 - that the SSPX hasn't "gotten on-board" with the rest of traditionalism in restoring the traditional, authentic Roman liturgy (that prior to 1955) is pretty laughable.

Right, but they are stuck in a pit they dug for themselves. The kicked out "the Nine" for using the pre-1955 Missal. Now they feel they can't go back and admit they were wrong. Other groups have been able to adopt the pre-1955 Missal because they don't have the same stumbling block.

It's kind of the pre-Vatican II spirit of ultramontanism being carried on within the SSPX, "If we ever admit we were wrong about anything at any time, the sky will fall, the world will end."

Or because they went and got permission... I see the risk of going from resisting a genuinley problematic mass to liturgical protestantism 'Oh I like this better than that' and the issue of where to draw the line. In any event I'll trust the judgment of ABL/ the SSPX on this matter rather than other trad groups.

ABL initially allowed the Novus Ordo Mass at Econe.

His focus was always doctrine and formation of priests, not liturgy.

Things were always laissez faire until Cekada, Dolan, Jenkins, Skierka, Ahern, Collins, Kelly, Zapp, and Sanborn disrespected the Abp, stole property, sued, got 3 priests to leave 1 day after ordination, etc

I'm pretty sure this was contested and I'm not going to get into trad politics, because it's tiresome.

[andy]

There is a specific reason FSSPX had no choice other than following 1962. You do not know it?

No, there isn't.

There is my friend. A very grave reason. The obedience to PXII.

[Bonaventure]

There is a specific reason FSSPX had no choice other than following 1962. You do not know it?

No, there isn't.

There is my friend. A very grave reason. The obedience to PXII.

That does not make sense to me.

Pius XII died in October 1958.

John XXIII promulgated the '62 Missal, including a very watered down prayer for the Jews on Good Friday, adding St. Joseph to the Canon, eliminating the 2nd confiteor, etc.

I have never seen the SSPX omit the 2nd Confiteor.

Where is their obedience to John XXIII?

Benedict XVI implemented an even more pathetic prayer in '08. Does the SSPX use that prayer? If not where is their obedience to Benedict XVI?

Where was the obedience to Paul VI when he ordered Archbhishop Lefebvre to shut down Econe? Or to JP2 in 1988?

It seems to me that all your talk of this so called "grave reason" is conditional. As Fr. Cekada said, a cardboard, cutout pope.

[andy]

You are right, it is obedience to JXXIII (not PXII) and '62 Missal. Subsequent Missal(s) is(are) not catholic, so I am not sure what is your problem. With regards to Econe - the story is not a clear cut. Even Rome has to abide by CCC.

[Kaesekopf]

You are right, it is obedience to JXXIII (not PXII) and '62 Missal. Subsequent Missal(s) is(are) not catholic, so I am not sure what is your problem. With regards to Econe - the story is not a clear cut. Even Rome has to abide by CCC.

What's not Catholic about the Interim  Missal/1965? 

[trentcath]

You are right, it is obedience to JXXIII (not PXII) and '62 Missal. Subsequent Missal(s) is(are) not catholic, so I am not sure what is your problem. With regards to Econe - the story is not a clear cut. Even Rome has to abide by CCC.

What's not Catholic about the Interim  Missal/1965? 

http://www.lmschairman.org/2014/02/the-death-of-reform-of-reform-5-1965.html you'd have to do a more thorough study but there's some discussion there, also it was never set as a missal strictly speaking, being merely interim revisions, so even if it was all fine (which seems doubtful) I don't see how one could go 'back' to it.

[Bonaventure]

These above posts illustrate the weakest point of Recognize and Resistance.

Infallibility, indefectibility, and pope sifting.

[trentcath]

These above posts illustrate the weakest point of Recognize and Resistance.

Infallibility, indefectibility, and pope sifting.

Someone hasn't changed *at all* We could equally say the above demonstrates the weakest points of sedevecantism, liturgical purists and all its variants. The priest didn't say mass exactly how I wanted, X part of Y missal isn't right according to me because of Z, therefore I'm going to    and anyone who disagrees with me isn't really a trad, can't make good arguments etc... etc... You do you and, as with many things in life, we'll find out who was right (or whether we were both wrong) at the final judgment 

[andy]

You are right, it is obedience to JXXIII (not PXII) and '62 Missal. Subsequent Missal(s) is(are) not catholic, so I am not sure what is your problem. With regards to Econe - the story is not a clear cut. Even Rome has to abide by CCC.

What's not Catholic about the Interim  Missal/1965? 

Being interim ...

[andy]

Recognize and Resistance.

What is Recognize and Resistance?