The Christian Muslim forum, an organization cochaired by Ausialary Bishop Paul Hendricks of Southwark, has published guidelines on Christian Muslim marriages.
http://catholic-ew.org.uk/Home/News-Releases/Interreligious-Marriage
Here is what the 1958 Penny Catechism says about mixed marriages. This is the teaching of the Church.
Q. Has the Church always forbidden mixed marriages?
A. The Church has always forbidden mixed marriages and considers them unlawful and pernicious.
Q. Does the Church sometimes permit mixed marriages?
A. The Church sometimes permits mixed marriages granting a dispensation, for very grave reasons and under special conditions.
Quote from: Bonaventure on December 27, 2012, 02:40:53 AM
Here is what the 1958 Penny Catechism says about mixed marriages. This is the teaching of the Church.
Q. Has the Church always forbidden mixed marriages?
A. The Church has always forbidden mixed marriages and considers them unlawful and pernicious.
Q. Does the Church sometimes permit mixed marriages?
A. The Church sometimes permits mixed marriages granting a dispensation, for very grave reasons and under special conditions.
There would have to be a dispensation. But now the Church has issued guidelines under which the dispensation would be granted and also is looking for an understanding with the Muslims as to how the family life would be lived under this type of arrangement. The question is; will they follow through with what they promise?
I went looking for the Muslim belief regarding intermarriage and found this:
QuoteIt is not permissible for a Muslim woman to marry a non-Muslim man.
It is permissible for a Muslim man to marry a Christian/Jewish woman strictly under these two conditions:
She is a true Christian/Jew – not by name and/or ancestral background.
She did not renegade from Islam and become a Christian/Jew.
NB. Due to some threatening factors, it is discouraged to marry a Christian/Jewish woman. It is perhaps for these factors that Hadhrat Úmar (Radhiyallaahu Ánhu) stopped Muslims during his reign of power to marry Christian/Jewish women.
If there is a difference in religion after marriage then four possibilities may arise.
Both spouses were non-Muslims and both simultaneously accepted Islam.
Both were Muslims and both simultaneously became Murtads (renegade from Islam).
In the above two situations the Nikah remains intact.
One becomes a Muslim and the other remains a non-Muslim. This situation is of two types.
The husband accepts Islam and the woman remains a non-Muslim. If the woman is an Ahlul-Kitaab (Christian or Jew as described above) then the Nikah is intact but if she follows some other faith then in an Islamic state the following procedure will be adopted:
The Qaadhi will invite her to Islam: if she accepts then the Nikah will be intact, but if she refuses or maintains silence then the Qaadhi will annul the marriage. If this situation occurs in a non-Islamic State then upon the woman spending three menstrual cycles, the Nikah will be instantly annulled.
The wife accepts Islam and the husband remains a non-Muslim.
If it is in an Islamic State the Qaadhi will invite him to Islam. If he accepts then the Nikah will remain. If he rejects or maintains silence then the Qaadhi will effect a separation. In a non-Islamic State the woman will be divorced upon three menstrual cycles. The woman will then have to observe another three menstrual cycles on observing Iddat.
In the situation where one of the spouses renegades. This is of two types.
If the husband renegades then the marriage is instantly annulled.
If the wife renegades then - according to the preferred opinion - this does not effect the Nikah. She will still be his wife. However, until she does not accept Islam the husband cannot cohabit with her.
http://www.zawaj.com/articles/outside.html
What's the deal with the menstrual cycles? Why can't they just make it a standard 6-month waiting period for all women regardless of how short or long their cycles are?
Quote from: Penelope on December 28, 2012, 12:10:55 AM
What's the deal with the menstrual cycles? Why can't they just make it a standard 6-month waiting period for all women regardless of how short or long their cycles are?
Maybe they are just assuming that all menstrual cycles last the same amount of time?
The idea is to make sure that she isn't pregnant. Though why they wait three and not just one, I couldn't really tell you.
Quote from: poche on December 27, 2012, 02:47:29 AM
Quote from: Bonaventure on December 27, 2012, 02:40:53 AM
Here is what the 1958 Penny Catechism says about mixed marriages. This is the teaching of the Church.
Q. Has the Church always forbidden mixed marriages?
A. The Church has always forbidden mixed marriages and considers them unlawful and pernicious.
Q. Does the Church sometimes permit mixed marriages?
A. The Church sometimes permits mixed marriages granting a dispensation, for very grave reasons and under special conditions.
There would have to be a dispensation. But now the Church has issued guidelines under which the dispensation would be granted and also is looking for an understanding with the Muslims as to how the family life would be lived under this type of arrangement. The question is; will they follow through with what they promise?
I have met an excess of people involved in mixed marriaged...all who received dispensations. Some of the marriages work out....the majority don't. What makes me batty is wondering WHO APPROVES THEM????
Quote from: Penelope on December 28, 2012, 12:10:55 AM
What's the deal with the menstrual cycles? Why can't they just make it a standard 6-month waiting period for all women regardless of how short or long their cycles are?
They take that from the Jewish law
Quote from: Katyn on December 28, 2012, 09:01:41 AM
Quote from: poche on December 27, 2012, 02:47:29 AM
Quote from: Bonaventure on December 27, 2012, 02:40:53 AM
Here is what the 1958 Penny Catechism says about mixed marriages. This is the teaching of the Church.
Q. Has the Church always forbidden mixed marriages?
A. The Church has always forbidden mixed marriages and considers them unlawful and pernicious.
Q. Does the Church sometimes permit mixed marriages?
A. The Church sometimes permits mixed marriages granting a dispensation, for very grave reasons and under special conditions.
There would have to be a dispensation. But now the Church has issued guidelines under which the dispensation would be granted and also is looking for an understanding with the Muslims as to how the family life would be lived under this type of arrangement. The question is; will they follow through with what they promise?
I have met an excess of people involved in mixed marriaged...all who received dispensations. Some of the marriages work out....the majority don't. What makes me batty is wondering WHO APPROVES THEM????
It's an issue of two people "falling in love" and wanting to be married.
Quote from: poche on December 28, 2012, 11:32:04 PM
Quote from: Katyn on December 28, 2012, 09:01:41 AM
Quote from: poche on December 27, 2012, 02:47:29 AM
Quote from: Bonaventure on December 27, 2012, 02:40:53 AM
Here is what the 1958 Penny Catechism says about mixed marriages. This is the teaching of the Church.
Q. Has the Church always forbidden mixed marriages?
A. The Church has always forbidden mixed marriages and considers them unlawful and pernicious.
Q. Does the Church sometimes permit mixed marriages?
A. The Church sometimes permits mixed marriages granting a dispensation, for very grave reasons and under special conditions.
There would have to be a dispensation. But now the Church has issued guidelines under which the dispensation would be granted and also is looking for an understanding with the Muslims as to how the family life would be lived under this type of arrangement. The question is; will they follow through with what they promise?
I have met an excess of people involved in mixed marriaged...all who received dispensations. Some of the marriages work out....the majority don't. What makes me batty is wondering WHO APPROVES THEM????
It's an issue of two people "falling in love" and wanting to be married.
The same mistake as the star crossed lovers of Verona?
I could see it working out with lukewarm Muslims or Muslims that have reservations with traditional Muslim teachings. I'm thinking of people like Cat Stevens who break certain teachings(I'm told he's not allowed to play music by his sect of Islam, but he does anyway).
Quote from: Bonaventure on December 28, 2012, 11:50:52 PM
Quote from: poche on December 28, 2012, 11:32:04 PM
Quote from: Katyn on December 28, 2012, 09:01:41 AM
Quote from: poche on December 27, 2012, 02:47:29 AM
Quote from: Bonaventure on December 27, 2012, 02:40:53 AM
Here is what the 1958 Penny Catechism says about mixed marriages. This is the teaching of the Church.
Q. Has the Church always forbidden mixed marriages?
A. The Church has always forbidden mixed marriages and considers them unlawful and pernicious.
Q. Does the Church sometimes permit mixed marriages?
A. The Church sometimes permits mixed marriages granting a dispensation, for very grave reasons and under special conditions.
There would have to be a dispensation. But now the Church has issued guidelines under which the dispensation would be granted and also is looking for an understanding with the Muslims as to how the family life would be lived under this type of arrangement. The question is; will they follow through with what they promise?
I have met an excess of people involved in mixed marriaged...all who received dispensations. Some of the marriages work out....the majority don't. What makes me batty is wondering WHO APPROVES THEM????
It's an issue of two people "falling in love" and wanting to be married.
The same mistake as the star crossed lovers of Verona?
At least they were both Catholic!
Muslim women can only marry Muslim men, something many in the West don't know about. A Christian man who sadly happens to fall in love with a Muslim woman can only get involved with her and marry her if he converts to the sect of Mohammed.
A Christian woman that has the unfortunate idea of falling in love with a Muslim man, will not have to forsake her religion in order to marry him, but their offspring will have to be raised under the yoke of Islam.
This, of course, assuming that the Muslim party and his (or her) family take Islam seriously.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on January 03, 2013, 06:08:04 AM
Muslim women can only marry Muslim men, something many in the West don't know about. A Christian man who sadly happens to fall in love with a Muslim woman can only get involved with her and marry her if he converts to the sect of Mohammed.
That is a possibility if they marry outside the Islamic world.
Quote from: poche on January 05, 2013, 04:26:29 AM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on January 03, 2013, 06:08:04 AM
Muslim women can only marry Muslim men, something many in the West don't know about. A Christian man who sadly happens to fall in love with a Muslim woman can only get involved with her and marry her if he converts to the sect of Mohammed.
That is a possibility if they marry outside the Islamic world.
What is a possibility?
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on January 05, 2013, 11:13:31 PM
Quote from: poche on January 05, 2013, 04:26:29 AM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on January 03, 2013, 06:08:04 AM
Muslim women can only marry Muslim men, something many in the West don't know about. A Christian man who sadly happens to fall in love with a Muslim woman can only get involved with her and marry her if he converts to the sect of Mohammed.
That is a possibility if they marry outside the Islamic world.
What is a possibility?
A Muslim woman can marry non-Muslims if they are not under Islamic law or strong cultural influence.
Quote from: Pæniteo on January 06, 2013, 02:13:32 AM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on January 05, 2013, 11:13:31 PM
Quote from: poche on January 05, 2013, 04:26:29 AM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on January 03, 2013, 06:08:04 AM
Muslim women can only marry Muslim men, something many in the West don't know about. A Christian man who sadly happens to fall in love with a Muslim woman can only get involved with her and marry her if he converts to the sect of Mohammed.
That is a possibility if they marry outside the Islamic world.
What is a possibility?
A Muslim woman can marry non-Muslims if they are not under Islamic law or strong cultural influence.
Hypothetically, yes.
Theoretically, though, all Muslims are under Islamic law so the happy couple may experience some trouble ahead if the wrong people find out about it.
Quote from: Lyubov on December 27, 2012, 11:15:05 PM
I went looking for the Muslim belief regarding intermarriage and found this:
QuoteIt is not permissible for a Muslim woman to marry a non-Muslim man.
It is permissible for a Muslim man to marry a Christian/Jewish woman strictly under these two conditions:
She is a true Christian/Jew – not by name and/or ancestral background.
She did not renegade from Islam and become a Christian/Jew.
NB. Due to some threatening factors, it is discouraged to marry a Christian/Jewish woman. It is perhaps for these factors that Hadhrat Úmar (Radhiyallaahu Ánhu) stopped Muslims during his reign of power to marry Christian/Jewish women.
If there is a difference in religion after marriage then four possibilities may arise.
Both spouses were non-Muslims and both simultaneously accepted Islam.
Both were Muslims and both simultaneously became Murtads (renegade from Islam).
In the above two situations the Nikah remains intact.
One becomes a Muslim and the other remains a non-Muslim. This situation is of two types.
The husband accepts Islam and the woman remains a non-Muslim. If the woman is an Ahlul-Kitaab (Christian or Jew as described above) then the Nikah is intact but if she follows some other faith then in an Islamic state the following procedure will be adopted:
The Qaadhi will invite her to Islam: if she accepts then the Nikah will be intact, but if she refuses or maintains silence then the Qaadhi will annul the marriage. If this situation occurs in a non-Islamic State then upon the woman spending three menstrual cycles, the Nikah will be instantly annulled.
The wife accepts Islam and the husband remains a non-Muslim.
If it is in an Islamic State the Qaadhi will invite him to Islam. If he accepts then the Nikah will remain. If he rejects or maintains silence then the Qaadhi will effect a separation. In a non-Islamic State the woman will be divorced upon three menstrual cycles. The woman will then have to observe another three menstrual cycles on observing Iddat.
In the situation where one of the spouses renegades. This is of two types.
If the husband renegades then the marriage is instantly annulled.
If the wife renegades then - according to the preferred opinion - this does not effect the Nikah. She will still be his wife. However, until she does not accept Islam the husband cannot cohabit with her.
http://www.zawaj.com/articles/outside.html
I believe with Sunni Muslims the wife can remain Christian and with Shi'ite Muslims she must convert. Of course there is huge variance with what people practice in day to day life.
I just can't figure out why any non-muslim woman would marry a muslim man. It makes absolutely no sense. Self-hatred maybe?
They meet and fall in love like other couples. If you look at many of the marriages between men from Islamic countries and American women, many of the American women would be on the very conservative or religious side as far as values.
I really can't imagine any scenario in which it would be ok to let a Catholic marry a Muslim.
Quote from: stitchmom on February 07, 2013, 11:23:10 AM
If you look at many of the marriages between men from Islamic countries and American women, many of the American women would be on the very conservative or religious side as far as values.
So called conservative values are still very different from muslim values..
Quote from: Ancilla Domini on December 28, 2012, 01:19:57 AM
The idea is to make sure that she isn't pregnant. Though why they wait three and not just one, I couldn't really tell you.
What if she's older? Is she trapped forever?
As far as pregnancy goes, some women spot, so perhaps that's the reason for 3 cycles?
Quote from: erin is nice on February 07, 2013, 01:19:16 PM
Quote from: stitchmom on February 07, 2013, 11:23:10 AM
If you look at many of the marriages between men from Islamic countries and American women, many of the American women would be on the very conservative or religious side as far as values.
So called conservative values are still very different from muslim values..
Exactly. There's nothing conservative about a near-Jansenistic attitude towards women (whilst thinking Heaven to be a sensual paradise), a rejection of Jesus Christ as God, a rejection of Original Sin, etc. etc.
Even pagans can be against abortion, contraception, and legalized sodomy.
Quote from: Bonaventure on February 07, 2013, 03:14:29 PM
Exactly. There's nothing conservative about a near-Jansenistic attitude towards women (whilst thinking Heaven to be a sensual paradise), a rejection of Jesus Christ as God, a rejection of Original Sin, etc. etc.
Even pagans can be against abortion, contraception, and legalized sodomy.
Muslims aren't even against contraception or sodomy.
They aren't?
Islam teaches against both contraception and sodomy.
The Muslims in Europe are having much more children(7 per family on average) than their Godless secular counterparts,proving that they are not practicing contraception at all.
Quote from: erin is nice on February 07, 2013, 07:58:02 AM
I just can't figure out why any non-muslim woman would marry a muslim man. It makes absolutely no sense. Self-hatred maybe?
It's very simple. People just fall in love, and when in love, they want to follow their beloved's ways as much as possible. The two Novus Ordo women I know who married Muslim men in Kuwait are very happy with their lives and children, especially since many Muslim men in prosperous and oil rich Kuwait are very wealthy, loving to spoil their wives.
How are the children being raised?
The children, who are now in their twenties of so, were raised Muslim and are Muslim.The Novus Ordo women were of course required to convert to Islam, for a Vatican II never happened to Muslims. However, the children are very westernized and secularised, wearing western clothing that cannot differentiate them from their American counterparts. Modern Kuwait is not at all like Saudi Arabia, and the vast majority of women there do not wear hijab or any traditional Arab clothing, preferring western jeans,pants, and luxury fashion brands. Those who wear all those traditional garb are very conservative and were not educated in the West, as most Kuwaitis are. The same is true in the United Arab Emirates, another modernized Arab nation. I would say the average Kuwaiti woman enjoys much more luxury and high western living than the average American woman, especially since she enjoys being pampered by her husband while staying at home and having nothing to do. One cannot underestimate the potent effect of secularism.
Quote from: Ancilla Domini on February 07, 2013, 09:59:06 PM
Islam teaches against both contraception and sodomy.
If the husband wants his wife to use contraception, she has an obligation to do so.
Quote from: erin is nice on February 08, 2013, 07:57:08 AM
Quote from: Ancilla Domini on February 07, 2013, 09:59:06 PM
Islam teaches against both contraception and sodomy.
If the husband wants his wife to use contraception, she has an obligation to do so.
Do you have a source for that? Everything I've read says the opposite, that if either spouse wants children, the other is obligated to provide them. Contraception is not absolutly forbidden in Islam, but it is strongly discouraged, except in cases where the mother's life or health is gravely endangered.
Since I asked you to provide a source, I guess I should do the same. :)
http://islamiclearningmaterials.com/islam-birth-control/
This article says of barrier methods, "The man should only use these methods in agreement with his wife as she has the right to bear children if she wants."
The article also explains that hormonal contraception is only permitted when there is a compelling medical reason and the husband agrees; Hysterectomy is only allowed when when pregnancy threatens the woman's life; And vasectomy, because it is never medically necessary, is strictly forbidden.
Quote from: Ancilla Domini on February 08, 2013, 12:08:52 PM
Since I asked you to provide a source, I guess I should do the same. :)
http://islamiclearningmaterials.com/islam-birth-control/
This article says of barrier methods, "The man should only use these methods in agreement with his wife as she has the right to bear children if she wants."
The article also explains that hormonal contraception is only permitted when there is a compelling medical reason and the husband agrees; Hysterectomy is only allowed when when pregnancy threatens the woman's life; And vasectomy, because it is never medically necessary, is strictly forbidden.
I don't think a "moderate Islam" website constitutes a reliable source. That site does not state that muslims believe that it is acceptable to have sex with 9 year old girls, but they do in fact believe that.
Quote from: erin is nice on February 08, 2013, 04:19:32 PMI don't think a "moderate Islam" website constitutes a reliable source.
Do you have a better source, or any source at all, to confirm your statement?
Quote from: Ancilla Domini on February 08, 2013, 12:08:52 PM
Since I asked you to provide a source, I guess I should do the same. :)
http://islamiclearningmaterials.com/islam-birth-control/
This article says of barrier methods, "The man should only use these methods in agreement with his wife as she has the right to bear children if she wants."
The article also explains that hormonal contraception is only permitted when there is a compelling medical reason and the husband agrees; Hysterectomy is only allowed when when pregnancy threatens the woman's life; And vasectomy, because it is never medically necessary, is strictly forbidden.
Do they mean tube-tying is only allowed when pregnancy threatens the woman's life? Because -- um, what about when uterine cancer threatens the woman's life? Just sayin'...
Quote from: erin is nice on February 08, 2013, 04:19:32 PMThat site does not state that muslims believe that it is acceptable to have sex with 9 year old girls, but they do in fact believe that.
Does it claim that they don't? I don't think it addresses that issue. :shrug:
Look, I have no interest in promoting Islam. But claims that Muslims aren't against sodomy and contraception simply aren't true. They do hold those and many other "conservative" values. There are reasons enough against mixed marriages despite that.
Quote from: OCLittleFlower on February 08, 2013, 05:15:15 PMDo they mean tube-tying is only allowed when pregnancy threatens the woman's life? Because -- um, what about when uterine cancer threatens the woman's life? Just sayin'...
No, any medical procedure, even if it results in permanent sterility, is allowed, if it is necessary to save the life of the woman.
This should finalize the debate of whether Muslims believe in contraception I hope:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/islamethics/contraception.shtml
Islamic views on contraception
Islamic medicine has known about birth control for centuries - for example the Muslim writers Avicenna (980-1037) and Al-Razi (d 923 or 924) refer to different methods of contraception.
Islam is strongly pro-family and regards children as a gift from God.
Muslim sexual ethics forbid sex outside marriage, so its teachings about birth control should be understood within the context of husband and wife.
There is no single attitude to contraception within Islam; however eight of the nine classic schools of Islamic law permit it.
But more conservative Islamic leaders have openly campaigned against the use of condoms or other birth control methods, thus making population planning in many countries ineffective.
This resistance to birth control was reflected in 2005 when a conference involving 40 Islamic scholars from 21 countries urged fresh efforts to push population planning and better reproductive health services.
But although all the participants were in favour of promoting the use of contraceptives for married couples, they were reluctant to make it part of their joint declaration for fear of reprisals from the more conservative Islamic scholars in their respective countries.
The Qur'an
The Qur'an does not refer to contraception explicitly, but Muslims opposed to birth control often quote the Qur'an as saying "You should not kill your children for fear of want" (17:31, 6:151) and interpret this as including a ban on contraception as well as infanticide. Supporters of birth control argue that this interpretation is wrong.
In practice most Muslim authorities permit contraception to preserve the health of the mother or the well-being of the family.
Hadith
There are a number of hadith which indicate that the Prophet knew of birth control and approved of it in appropriate circumstances.
Methods
Hadith are said to describe and approve of the withdrawal method ('azl).
Scholars point out that this method may deprive the woman of both sexual fulfilment and of having children, and so should not be used without the woman's agreement.
Egyptian scholars have argued that any method that has the same purpose as 'azl - i.e. preventing conception - is acceptable, so long as it does not have a permanent effect.
Contraceptive methods that do not prevent conception but cause a very early abortion are not accepted.
Contraception with the aim of having a permanently child-free marriage is not accepted. So sterilisation is wrong - partly because it prevents children permanently and partly because of a text forbidding men to castrate themselves.
I wonder if the Wahhabis or the Shiites in Iran are okay with it.