Most Catholics Will Go To Hell - St. Leonard

[MaximGun]

For a child playing with matches the future is not set in stone.

To the wise parent watching them it is.

There is only one future which will happen and God knows it.

Humans don't have the data or the brain power to make sense of what will happen so there seem to be an almost infinite number of possible outcomes. But weather forecasts today are much more accurate than they were 40 years ago.  Because the data and the calculations (wisdom) are much better than before.

[Miriam_M]

The weird thing is, I have tremendous hope in God for my physical well-being. I trust that He is in charge of my life and death and that if He wants me alive, I will stay alive -- and vice-versa. I trust in His Providence regarding the next direction of my life, etc.  But I think I have been listening to too many sermons that cast much more doubt over my spiritual destiny than anything in my earthly destiny.

God is not fickle or mutable, so there really is no logic in the confidence I hold out for my earthly destiny that I do not also extend to my heavenly destiny.  It is my temperament, easily tempted to negativity -- which is what Satan loves to manipulate, that leads me to doubt what I should not.

The way you feel is actually perfectly reasonable, and also predictable if one is pursuing a spiritual life.

Reliance on divine providence for one's natural life is a step which inevitably must come prior to reliance on divine providence for one's supernatural life. The first is easier and more obvious. The second is more difficult and more hidden.

So rather than calling it illogical or blaming sermons, what it really means is that you are beginning another, more challenging stage.

Hmm. Did I "blame sermons"?  I didn't think so.  I thought I had blamed my own irrationality.

Thank you very much for the other insights, though.  I shall think on them.

[Miriam_M]

why would anyone would have a child if the chance of going to Heaven was 1 in 20,000?

BBT, are you speaking about the references in the sermon to a couple of instances of a vision by some holy person -- and was it not private revelation?-- that gave figures like "3" destined for Heaven out of (some five-figure number) and another statistic that was quite like it? (I have forgotten whom St. Leonard named as the visionary.)

Let's pretend for a moment that the private revelation was accurate (though naturally not binding). Perhaps that pertained to a particular location and time period, because remember that also in the sermon, St. Leonard mentions the few spared in Sodom and Gomorrah.  (Doesn't he?  I'll have to have another listen, perhaps.) There are some settings during some time periods that are particularly wicked.  And in those cases -- like today -- I can certainly imagine very few individuals in some locations and lifestyles escaping Hell, should all those souls die at once.

Again, I do not think the point of the sermon was to generalize destinations for all settings and all time periods being overwhelmingly skewed toward the damned.  I think he was saying that undoubtedly in some populations and moments in history, the numbers will not only be <50%; they will also be in the single digit percentages.  But the general statement he makes repeatedly is that >50% go to Hell while <50% ultimately are united with God. That's really his only overriding principle.  Further, there is a greater disparity, he implies, than simply 50.1% vs. 49.9%.

I think we can name some settings IRL today in which the vast majority of people in that town, neighborhood, province or even nation are wicked and proud of it.  If a handful of practicing Catholics happened to also be living there, doing their best to live a good life despite being aware of their sins, it is actually realistic that most of the area would be damned but literally the few spared who were living a moral life.

To pick up on your rhetorical point, no, I do not agree that there would be "no point" in having a family.  Yes, St. Leonard includes Catholics in the "few saved," but again, that is an overall picture. He's not saying that among practicing, sincere, imperfect Catholics, few of them will be saved. That's not the way I interpret him. I interpret him saying that if you add up all the baptized Catholics in the whole world since the dawn of the Church until the year of his sermon, there would be collectively much fewer in Heaven than in Hell. He's talking about unrepentant sin among the baptized, as the majority reality. That does seem plausible to me.

Addressing your rhetorical question:  The way you frame it makes it seem that a Heavenly destination is a lottery, completely out of our control. That is absolutely not Church teaching. If we have no control over our spiritual destiny, then it would be risky for our family if we did reproduce, but God as a punitive, unforgiving tyrant is not a Catholic image of God.  The way you ask the question seems to suggest such a capricious God who does not reward sincerity and does not tolerate imperfection; and further, that randomness is the operative principle, about which we should calculate our "chances" before reproducing.

Let's ask ourselves, rather, whether it is plausible that St. Leonard of Port Maurice won over so many converts in his many years as a missionary by offering an image of a God Who is so demanding that the "odds" [lottery language] of going to Heaven are minuscule. Cumulatively, St. Leonard did an enormous amount of mission work and is esteemed by the Church as being highly successful. However, like us, even those who know God as the font of mercy through His Son can fall away and risk losing Heaven -- not because of "chances" but because of decisions that they, not God, made.

I think this is a cautionary sermon meant for a particular audience and sets of circumstances, and that it does not imply that working out one's salvation is probably a futile effort.

Edited to correct "implausible" when I meant "plausible" !

[Miriam_M]

Hmm. Did I "blame sermons"?  I didn't think so.  I thought I had blamed my own irrationality.

Thank you very much for the other insights, though.  I shall think on them.

I think that Max was probably referring to my Reply #35.  I should have phrased it as "my disposition when listening to such sermons."  The fault is not in the sermons, I think.

[james03]

The fact that few Catholics are saved is not hard to figure out.  Out of the pool of baptized Catholics, only 30% attend Church.  So right off the bat, 70% are going to hell.  Out of the remaining 30%, 50% don't believe in the real Presence and I believe 90% contracept.  So it could be as bad as only 3% of baptized Catholic are saved.

So the real question is out of church going, non-heretic Catholics, how many are saved?  Greater than 50%.  It boils down to mortal sin. Since the average age of death is 78, what percent of Catholics over 60 have a problem with habitual mortal sin, meaning the Church going, non - heretic population?  I'd say a small number, likely booze or drugs.

Now don't get presumptuous, as you could be the unlikely one to slip up and be damned, but really have Hope, receive the sacraments, pray, be ready with an act of Contrition when you slip up, and work on Charity.  While we should work out our salvation in fear and trembling, we should not be overwhelmed with terror.  Ironically viewing God as some sort of ogre will make it harder to be saved, because the key is to really work on Charity, which would be difficult if you are terrorized by God.

If you are a Trad, the hardest part is behind you.  Work on eliminating sin and deepening your love of  God.

[TandJ]

This sermon used to cause me anxiety until I broke down each sentence and really tried to understand it. He's basically saying all the people in hell chose to go there for unrepent mortal sin. That was a great consolation to me because although I'm imperfect I truly love God and strive to be a faithful Catholic, so there's much hope for my salvation because the odds of me dying in unrepentant sin is near zero. 

[Michael Wilson]

St. Teresa of Avila as cited by St. Alphonsus of Liguori:

All those who are in Heaven are there because they prayed; and all those who are in Hell are there because they did not pray; and if those in Heaven had not prayed, then they would now be in Hell; and if all those who are now in Hell would have prayed, they would now be in Heaven.

[lauermar]

@Gerard, I remember a video of the early "Real Catholic TV" of 10 years ago, where Voris insisted that the majority of us would go to hell. I responded that there is reason for hope as long as one goes to confession at least monthly, is truly repentant, makes a sincere effort to keep the commandments, observe holy days, daily prayer and sacrifice, and wearing of the blessed scapular. To which he responded negatively. He insisted that I was calling Christ a liar, because the pathway to hell is wide.

I say away from Voris' media outlet. What is the point of practicing the faith and doing all of these things if we are all going to end up in hell regardless? May as well be an atheist. Billy Joel's song "Only The Good Die Young" comes to my mind.

Ignatian Spirituality exercises are a lot like that, and I have to be careful when I read them. There are some statements regarding wishing of illness upon oneself. If you take it literally, you may as well commit suicide or maim yourself, both of which are also against church teaching. That would be a sure path to hell.

Like everything else, some of these writings have to be weighed against other writings that discuss Christian joy and hope in the crucifixion and resurrection. My mom used to say, nobody goes to hell and wonders how did I get there. You have to knock on the door and ask to be let in.

[james03]

To which he responded negatively. He insisted that I was calling Christ a liar, because the pathway to hell is wide.

He can't do math.  Look at the quick calc I did and it's around 3%.

I responded that there is reason for hope as long as one goes to confession at least monthly, is truly repentant, makes a sincere effort to keep the commandments, observe holy days, daily prayer and sacrifice, and wearing of the blessed scapular.

And that's 3% of baptized Catholics. 

Out of church going Catholics, if was assume for argument that 90% contracept, and if we assume none of those repent and confess it, then out of church going Catholics, the max saved is 10%.

So you were right, and you weren't contradicting the Bible.

[james03]

Miriam_M,

Did you really change that font to red and italic?

Next project I run, you're my project secretary.

[Miriam_M]

Miriam_M,

Did you really change that font to red and italic?

Next project I run, you're my project secretary.

I did indeed, and I'll be glad to be your next project secretary. (It's actually maroon, Georgia, and italic.)

[Innocent Smith]

@Gerard, I remember a video of the early "Real Catholic TV" of 10 years ago, where Voris insisted that the majority of us would go to hell. I responded that there is reason for hope as long as one goes to confession at least monthly, is truly repentant, makes a sincere effort to keep the commandments, observe holy days, daily prayer and sacrifice, and wearing of the blessed scapular. To which he responded negatively. He insisted that I was calling Christ a liar, because the pathway to hell is wide.

I say away from Voris' media outlet. What is the point of practicing the faith and doing all of these things if we are all going to end up in hell regardless? May as well be an atheist. Billy Joel's song "Only The Good Die Young" comes to my mind.

Ignatian Spirituality exercises are a lot like that, and I have to be careful when I read them. There are some statements regarding wishing of illness upon oneself. If you take it literally, you may as well commit suicide or maim yourself, both of which are also against church teaching. That would be a sure path to hell.

Like everything else, some of these writings have to be weighed against other writings that discuss Christian joy and hope in the crucifixion and resurrection. My mom used to say, nobody goes to hell and wonders how did I get there. You have to knock on the door and ask to be let in.

Good post.  Here's a little anecdote for you. 

My youngest once asked me before an All Souls Day Mass was about to begin, with Mozart's Requiem on tap, and a casket at the front of the church with six candles guarding it, if we want to die.  I was horrified by the question.  I told him that we are not to fear death, but rather use up our bodies and souls for good here on earth and be taken when God wants us. 

What really horrified me is that in reading some of the hagiographies I realize that I almost could have answered the question in the affirmative. 

As far as Voris goes, he's just a hard ass to make up for lost time as a lapsed Catholic and to make up for his sexual problems.  These people are dangerous.  Just like reformed smokers sometimes are the toughest on current smokers.  Though that is relatively harmless and mere annoyance. 

I think he suffers from narcissism and he most likely always has.  Because he thinks the greatest sinners, of which he was one in the past, should then become prophets.  It appears to be tied up with his mother as he used to always say she was St. Monica.  I guess that makes him Augustine.  That is at the base of his personality imo.  This is going to cause big problems in trying to stay humble.

[Xavier]

To those worried about their own salvation, I always recommend the Marian Life Offering: https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

It promises Heaven to all those who offer their Lives and all their Communions to Jesus through Mary: "TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING

     My dear Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with your most precious Blood and your sacrifice on Calvary, I hereby offer my whole life to the intention of your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Together with my life, I place at your disposal all Holy Masses, all my Holy Communions, all my good deeds, all my sacrifices, and the sufferings of my of my entire life for the adoration and supplication of the Holy Trinity, for unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father and priests, for good priestly vocations, and for all souls until the end of the world.

     O my Jesus, please accept my life sacrifice and my offerings and give me your grace that I may persevere obediently until my death.  Amen."

This life offering must be made with a humble heart, firm resolution, and clear intent.  All prayer, good deeds, suffering, and work done with a pure intention has great merit, if it is offered together with the merits, the sufferings, and the Blood of Jesus Christ. It is recommended that you make this life offering as soon as you feel ready, and to renew it from time to time."

I like St. Leonard's sermon and don't see it as causing despair. St. Leonard said, quoting the Apocalypse, that a great number of Christians indeed will be saved. He just said, on the whole, theologians generally say, it will be a lesser number. This is because many Christians live in a bad way, by continually committing one mortal sin or another.

If all Christians lived in a good and holy way after Baptism, then all Christians could be saved. There is nothing lacking in the Grace of Christ. St. Alphonsus Ligouri has said the same.

Catholics who are serious in the Faith, avoid grave sins, love God, and make many prayers and sacrifices imo have far greater than 90 or even 99% chances of being saved. It is a non sequitur, a logical fallacy, to imagine that "Even if 40% of Christians are saved, and I am a Christian, then my chances of being saved are only 40%". No, that's not true. Let's say 45% are good, serious, practicing Catholics and the other 55% are not. These 40% who are saved come from the ranks of those 45% who are good serious Catholics.

I think there is a tendency, among serious traditional Catholics, upon reading sermons like these or those of St. Alphonsus, to misunderstand, and consequently to despair. Despair can be fatal to the Faith and to the good efforts one is otherwise making. St. Leonard himself quotes St. Peter to tell us we must continue to strive, by good works, to make our election sure. We should not despair.

Our Lord Promises Salvation for just 9 Holy Communions well received on First Fridays. That tells me just one year of serious effort, combined with supernatural faith in His Divine Promises, is enough to merit the graces needed for salvation. One should do that, and then continue lifelong in doing good, and avoiding evil. Praying for others who are lost or needy, for which we will be blessed and rewarded. St. Dominic Savio gives an important principle: "If I manage to help save one other soul, I also ensure my own salvation".

We should have holiness and seriousness in combating evil, but we should avoid all despair and discouragement. Love God, believe in Christ, invoke Mother Mary, keep the Commandments, and you will be saved. If you fail, repent from a contrite heart, and all will be well.

[King Wenceslas]

A new poll from the Pew Research Center found that an overwhelming majority of American Catholics believe that despite his support for abortion, President Joe Biden should be allowed to receive communion.

Biden's outspoken support for abortion puts him at odds with the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, of which he is a member. The Catholic Church teaches that abortion is "gravely contrary to the moral law."

According to the Pew poll, which was released Tuesday, 67% of Catholics disagree with the idea that Biden should be denied communion, while 29% believe that his support for abortion should prevent him from receiving the sacrament. A majority of Catholic Republicans and those who lean Republican (55%) believe that Biden's support for abortion should disqualify him from receiving communion, but their view is canceled out by the 87% of Catholic Democrats and Democrat leaners who feel otherwise.

Notice even 45% of Republican Catholics believe Biden should receive communion.

The wheat and the shaft. Many are called, few are chosen.

[lauermar]

I believe that Biden's attempt to marry two men and his public support for gender transitioning are further reasons to disqualify him for Communion. He's a formal heretic.