Author Topic: Why I disagree with implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics  (Read 1808 times)

Offline Elizabeth.2

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Re: Why I disagree with implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2021, 11:53:54 AM »
Ah... It's all coming back to me again... the good ol'days from Angelqueen forum and all the guys rolling up their sleeves to punch each other in the head over the never ending  BOD debate. I can almost hear that old server groaning under the terabytes of BOD debate-posts again...
Angelqueen survivors unite!  :grouphug:
 
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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Why I disagree with implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2021, 10:41:29 AM »
.

If I am right about there being no such thing as implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics...then the SSPX and most Sedevacantists are heretics.

Where would a Catholic go to Mass then and get his 10 children confirmed?

First of all, according to Marian Apparitions and some canonized people, this was all supposed to happen. Second of all, I'm not sure where to go myself. I have read a theory (keep in mind its just a theory) that a heretic can administer the sacraments to a true Catholic who is in need of them. But I am not sure if this is true.

It is not a theory, it is a teaching of the Church. Trent teaches that in danger of death, it does not matter what your sin or censure is, even heretics wanting to repent can receive the last sacraments or must get to confession - even if that means receiving these sacraments from a heretic priest. 

Quote
Trent 14th Session: Chapter 7:
"...Nevertheless, for fear lest any may perish on this account, it has always been very piously observed in the said Church of God, that there be no reservation at the point of death, and that therefore all priests may absolve all penitents whatsoever from every kind of sins and censures whatever: and as, save at that point of death, priests have no power in reserved cases, let this alone be their endeavour, to persuade penitents to repair to superior and lawful judges for the benefit of absolution."

Even after a long life of sin, if the Christian receives the Sacrament of the dying with the appropriate dispositions, he will go straight to heaven without having to go to purgatory. - Fr. M. Philipon; This sacrament prepares man for glory immediately, since it is given to those who are departing from this life. - St. Thomas Aquinas; It washes away the sins that remain to be atoned, and the vestiges of sin; it comforts and strengthens the soul of the sick person, arousing in him a great trust and confidence in the divine mercy. Thus strengthened, he bears the hardships and struggles of his illness more easily and resists the temptation of the devil and the heel of the deceiver more readily; and if it be advantageous to the welfare of his soul, he sometimes regains his bodily health. - Council of Trent
 
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Offline Mattchew83

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Re: Why I disagree with implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2021, 12:57:25 PM »
Just so you all know...I am a descendant of Charlemagne who is descended of Clovis I King of France who is descended of Abraham. Because of this, I believe this strengthens my argument.
 

Offline Mattchew83

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Re: Why I disagree with implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2021, 02:49:06 PM »
Just so you all know...I am a descendant of Charlemagne who is descended of Clovis I King of France who is descended of Abraham. Because of this, I believe this strengthens my argument.

Plus I am a true believer. This also strengthens my argument. Let me describe to you what being a believer means...

When you experience God's love surging through your body and in this moment there is no doubt in your mind that He exists. If you have never experienced this before, then you are not a true believer and something is wrong. You must reach this level of Faith in order to have a chance to make it to Heaven.
 

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Why I disagree with implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2021, 01:48:23 PM »
Just so you all know...I am a descendant of Charlemagne who is descended of Clovis I King of France who is descended of Abraham. Because of this, I believe this strengthens my argument.

Plus I am a true believer. This also strengthens my argument. Let me describe to you what being a believer means...

When you experience God's love surging through your body and in this moment there is no doubt in your mind that He exists. If you have never experienced this before, then you are not a true believer and something is wrong. You must reach this level of Faith in order to have a chance to make it to Heaven.

Then the question is, have you moved any mountains yet? After all, Our Lord said all that is needed to move mountains (which at the time, even the Apostles didn't have), is the faith as a grain of mustard seed, or about .000004 grams worth.  I think it's safer to go by this standard to measure our own degree of faith.  ;) 
Even after a long life of sin, if the Christian receives the Sacrament of the dying with the appropriate dispositions, he will go straight to heaven without having to go to purgatory. - Fr. M. Philipon; This sacrament prepares man for glory immediately, since it is given to those who are departing from this life. - St. Thomas Aquinas; It washes away the sins that remain to be atoned, and the vestiges of sin; it comforts and strengthens the soul of the sick person, arousing in him a great trust and confidence in the divine mercy. Thus strengthened, he bears the hardships and struggles of his illness more easily and resists the temptation of the devil and the heel of the deceiver more readily; and if it be advantageous to the welfare of his soul, he sometimes regains his bodily health. - Council of Trent
 
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Offline Gardener

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Re: Why I disagree with implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2021, 09:47:56 PM »
Just so you all know...I am a descendant of Charlemagne who is descended of Clovis I King of France who is descended of Abraham. Because of this, I believe this strengthens my argument.

What does your putative ancestry have to do with, well, anything?
The Modern Attack will not tolerate us. It will attempt to
destroy us. Nor can we tolerate it. We must attempt to destroy it as being the fully equipped and ardent enemy of the Truth by which men live. The duel is to the death.” - Hilaire Belloc, The Great Heresies
 
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Offline Mattchew83

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Re: Why I disagree with implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2021, 10:53:32 AM »
Just so you all know...I am a descendant of Charlemagne who is descended of Clovis I King of France who is descended of Abraham. Because of this, I believe this strengthens my argument.

Plus I am a true believer. This also strengthens my argument. Let me describe to you what being a believer means...

When you experience God's love surging through your body and in this moment there is no doubt in your mind that He exists. If you have never experienced this before, then you are not a true believer and something is wrong. You must reach this level of Faith in order to have a chance to make it to Heaven.

Then the question is, have you moved any mountains yet? After all, Our Lord said all that is needed to move mountains (which at the time, even the Apostles didn't have), is the faith as a grain of mustard seed, or about .000004 grams worth.  I think it's safer to go by this standard to measure our own degree of faith.  ;)

I think because I am a sinner I could not move any mountains. It has been a long time since I have reached that level of Faith. I first became a believer back in Feb-April of 2011 after reading a document that proved that the Eucharist is truly the body of Christ. It had all these Old Testament and New Testament verses that fully explained the belief in the Eucharist as Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. And just a few minutes after reading this document...God caused me to believe. My body surged with His love and I knew He existed. From then on, I would fall into mortal sin probably just a couple of days each 6-8 weeks. I would then go to confession, do penance, and really show God that I was serious about repentance...then I would reach that level of Faith again after a few weeks of repenting. This went on for about 2 years after having first become a believer. I think I have caused some people to come to believe since then. I once gave a speech in college to a class full of non-believers. My speech was about how I believed that the Great Catholic Monarch (something they knew nothing about) is coming within the next 30 years. And I fully expressed my argument, and I could tell that I caused my 78 year old teacher from England to believe. She was a schizmatic Episcopalian. The rest of the class (around 10 people)...I could tell at least some of them were seriously considering my argument and I think it was hitting their souls.

I also gave another speech during a Dead Sea Scrolls class that Catholicism is actually rooted in Judaism. And I proved to all these heretics and Novus Ordites (about 15 people in total) that the belief in priests having the ability to absolve people of their sins is not only scriptural but also related to how the priests in ancient Judaism also had this ability. During the festivals the Israelites would gather around a priest who had an animal sacrifice (sometimes Lambs were used) and he would place his hands on the head of the animal and cast the sins of the Israelites into the animal. He would then slit the throat of the animal and the sins of the Israelites would die with the animal. Roman Catholic priests also have this ability. I convinced all of these people of this belief. My professor was a heretic and one of my classmates was a Satanic Ashkenazi Baptist. Yes I could tell I punched her soul with that one. LOL.
 

Offline ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez

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Re: Why I disagree with implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2021, 11:12:38 AM »
It has been a long time since I have reached that level of Faith.

What you experienced was a consolation.  If you base your spiritual life on consolations, you will fail as soon as they are withdrawn.  And they are always withdrawn eventually.

Look at what you wrote.  You were never habitually in a state of grace.  You talk scornfully about unbelievers, but you can't remain in a state of grace for more than a month or two.  What did the Lord say about hypocrites?

Get into a habitual state of grace, and then start worrying about everything else.

http://catholictradition.org/Litanies/litany55.htm
 
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Offline Mattchew83

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Re: Why I disagree with implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2021, 11:30:17 PM »
It has been a long time since I have reached that level of Faith.

What you experienced was a consolation.  If you base your spiritual life on consolations, you will fail as soon as they are withdrawn.  And they are always withdrawn eventually.

Look at what you wrote.  You were never habitually in a state of grace.  You talk scornfully about unbelievers, but you can't remain in a state of grace for more than a month or two.  What did the Lord say about hypocrites?

Get into a habitual state of grace, and then start worrying about everything else.

http://catholictradition.org/Litanies/litany55.htm

The sinner who is a believer stands a chance for salvation...the unbeliever does not. Being a true believer places you above most of humanity. It basically says that God prefers you more than them (unbelievers). When Christ says "enter through the narrow gate...there are few who find it"...he is saying that few people become true believers. So I know that I am definitely something special in the eyes of God because I am a true believer. I certainly do not agree with you that I am a hypocrite for being a sinner. I have gotten way better about not sinning since becoming a true believer.

One thing about me is that I am mostly celibate and I wear the brown scapular. I think this helps too.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2021, 11:35:29 PM by Mattchew83 »
 

Offline Mattchew83

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Re: Why I disagree with implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2021, 11:49:16 PM »
Just so you all know...I am a descendant of Charlemagne who is descended of Clovis I King of France who is descended of Abraham. Because of this, I believe this strengthens my argument.

What does your putative ancestry have to do with, well, anything?

Any traditional Catholic priest (including the SSPX) will tell you that the French Kings were a holy race. The same thing about a Jew who converts to Catholicism. Yes it is because of his race. Here is a prophecy about the Great Catholic Monarch...

Saint Caesar of Arles (5th Century) refers to the French Kings as a "Holy RACE"...

"This Pope shall have with him, the Great Monarch, a most virtuous man who shall be a scion of the holy race of the French kings"

Also refer to Revelation 7 which refers to the descendants of the tribes of Israel as being "Servants of God"
« Last Edit: September 22, 2021, 12:12:31 AM by Mattchew83 »
 

Offline Kathleen

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Re: Why I disagree with implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2021, 07:41:23 AM »
Read/listen more.

Speak far less.

It will instill necessary humility and the knowledge that you are often wrong.

ONLY God is holy. Only through HIM and OUR PERSONAL DIRECT cooperation do we gain holiness.

To claim hereditary holiness is to claim holiness without need of God.

God CAN and does BLESS or CURSE multiple generations of a family.

But if one ACTUALLY comes from a family that is blessed it should make one DEEPLY humble KNOWING that blessing has NOTHING to do with one's OWN ACTIONS.

Pride goeth before destruction: and the spirit is lifted up before a fall. It is better to be humbled with the meek, than to divide spoils with the proud.  Proverbs 16:18-19
« Last Edit: September 22, 2021, 08:43:24 AM by Kathleen »
 
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Offline Mattchew83

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Re: Why I disagree with implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2021, 12:33:54 PM »
Read/listen more.

Speak far less.

It will instill necessary humility and the knowledge that you are often wrong.

ONLY God is holy. Only through HIM and OUR PERSONAL DIRECT cooperation do we gain holiness.

To claim hereditary holiness is to claim holiness without need of God.

God CAN and does BLESS or CURSE multiple generations of a family.

But if one ACTUALLY comes from a family that is blessed it should make one DEEPLY humble KNOWING that blessing has NOTHING to do with one's OWN ACTIONS.

Pride goeth before destruction: and the spirit is lifted up before a fall. It is better to be humbled with the meek, than to divide spoils with the proud.  Proverbs 16:18-19

You need to watch what you say WOMAN. You are not even interpreting what I say correctly. Who are you to say that race does not matter. I just showed you evidence of why it does...where is the evidence of what you say? This is what I actually believe...

If you are a believer regardless of race...you are above most of humanity. But if you are descended of Abraham AND a true believer...you are favored by God. But in order for your race to count for anything you must be a true believer. So, a non-descendant of Abraham who is a believer is above a descendant of Abraham who is not a believer. Being a believer is more important than race, but race does still matter.
 

Offline ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez

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Re: Why I disagree with implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2021, 12:46:10 PM »
One thing about me is that I am mostly celibate and I wear the brown scapular. I think this helps too.

Being "mostly celibate" is like being "mostly straight".  It also means that you were (at best) "mostly" in a state of grace, and that's assuming you approached the sacrament of penance with a firm purpose of amendment and not just as some kind of videogame power-up.

You need to watch what you say WOMAN.

The holiest creature of all time is a woman.

Being a believer is more important than race, but race does still matter.

Very few of your beliefs are Catholic.
 
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Offline Mattchew83

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Re: Why I disagree with implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2021, 12:53:20 PM »
One thing about me is that I am mostly celibate and I wear the brown scapular. I think this helps too.

Being "mostly celibate" is like being "mostly straight".  It also means that you were (at best) "mostly" in a state of grace, and that's assuming you approached the sacrament of penance with a firm purpose of amendment and not just as some kind of videogame power-up.

You need to watch what you say WOMAN.

The holiest creature of all time is a woman.

Being a believer is more important than race, but race does still matter.

Very few of your beliefs are Catholic.


What beliefs are not Catholic? You can't just make a claim without showing any proof or evidence and expect people to believe in what you say.
 

Offline Kathleen

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Re: Why I disagree with implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2021, 03:19:37 PM »
>> What beliefs are not Catholic? You can't just make a claim without showing any proof or evidence and expect people to believe in what you say.

>> Just so you all know...I am a descendant of Charlemagne who is descended of Clovis I King of France who is descended of Abraham. Because of this, I believe this strengthens my argument.

. . .

Quóniam tu solus Sanctus!