Can one be a hyper-universalist in good standing with the church?

[Melkite]

What I'm thinking of would take place in the last moments before death, not after it.

Yes, that is what I meant. This has been rejected by at least all the traditional theologians as pretty much baseless and wishful thinking.

By traditional theologians, do you mean from all orthodox Catholic schools of thought?  Or do they all come from a scholastic vein?

[Melkite]

Yes, that is what I meant. This has been rejected by at least all the traditional theologians as pretty much baseless and wishful thinking.

Also, I am more inclined to believe it if our will is only free from our perspective.  If it is truly free even from God's, and he doesn't orchestrate creation so that we're purposefully inclined to sin in order to bring about his plan, I'm much more sympathetic to the idea that the way a man lives is likely also how he dies.

[Michael Wilson]

Also, I am more inclined to believe it if our will is only free from our perspective.  If it is truly free even from God's, and he doesn't orchestrate creation so that we're purposefully inclined to sin in order to bring about his plan, I'm much more sympathetic to the idea that the way a man lives is likely also how he dies.

God does not will evil; but evil, at least moral evil is the direct consequence of free will in intelligent creatures. God did not create man with an inclination to sin, but with "integrity of the intellect, will and passions"; Adam was inclined to virtue by his original innocence. That is why our First Parents could not commit a Venial sin, only a Mortal one.

[Melkite]

God does not will evil; but evil, at least moral evil is the direct consequence of free will in intelligent creatures. God did not create man with an inclination to sin, but with "integrity of the intellect, will and passions"; Adam was inclined to virtue by his original innocence. That is why our First Parents could not commit a Venial sin, only a Mortal one.

Ok, let's flesh this out then, if it's even possible.

God does not will us to sin.  But it was his will to create the exact universe that we live in now?  All the people that exist, who could only exist because of certain choices being made, many of them sinful.  If this is what God determined to create, and he determined it prior to our existence, how can our will still be free?

Is it that God foresaw our choices, and ordained creation in light of what he saw our free choices would be?  If so, why did he prefer a world where we sinned as opposed to one where we didn't?  Is it just so that we could freely choose to love him?  If so, could he hypothetically have created a world where we freely chose to love him but no one sinned?  Or no one chose not to freely love him?

This is one of my hang ups.  If God chose the best possible world to create, then it sounds like it was not possible for him to create a universe where we truly had free will and also everyone freely chose to love him.  And yet, Jesus said of Judas that it was better if he had not been born.  So best for God isn't necessarily best for us.  Why would God create a world that included some for whom it would have been better that they had not been created at all, if it also is his will that none should perish and he truly loves all?  Wouldn't his love for the soul mean that he would forsake his own perfect plan for a slightly less perfect plan that didn't require someone he loved to be better off not born?

Can we say that it was merely God's will to create a universe where all had free will to choose to love him, and that he passively allowed everyone to sin, even though that was against his will, because it was a logical necessity in order to freely choose?  That is, God didn't specifically will for the Holocaust or any other evil even to take place, but merely allowed it, and didn't have a specific plan for the Holocaust either taking place or not taking place?  If he created with the intent of the Holocaust taking place, and actively rejected other possibilities because of what he wanted to bring about, how could it also be true that those who were responsible for the Holocaust truly had free will?

If God's plan for the universe was more loose, and dependent on our choices for how it unfolded - that is, he didn't have an intricately detailed plan that had to unfold a particular way, but was more intent on setting it in motion and letting our choices determine how it unfolded, I don't really see a problem with that.  But if he had a specific plan that he was only going to allow that one plan to come to fruition, then even if he planned it with our choices being truly free, I don't see how it is logically possible that our wills weren't in someway coerced to bring it about.  How could only one particular universe be allowed by God - one specific chain of events that he wanted to create - and also our wills be completely free to choose, even choices that would alter his plan, but we infallibly always choose in a way that brings about the only order of events that he would allow to be created?

[KreKre]

God created a perfect world, and part of the perfection of that world is the Free Will of angels and men. A hypothetical world where angels and men did not have Free Will would not be pleasing to God, clearly. The obvious reason for that seems to be the fact God wants us to love Him, and love cannot be coerced. Anything that, from our limited perspective, might seem like an imperfection in Creation, came about as a consequence of sin. Having free will means being able to sin. There is no way around that, God abides by logic, He does not create square circles or triangles with four corners. So any creature that has free will has the ability to sin.

Did God foresee that? Yes. Does He know every choice, past, present and future of His every creature? Yes. Does He know whether you will ultimately be saved or damned, and does He possess that knowledge at this very moment, while you still have the choice in the matter? Yes.

He knew all of that before time was.

Does the fact that God has all this knowledge limit your Free Will in any way? No, because you are not coerced in any way, and you don't have this knowledge to influence (which is to say, limit) your decisions in any way. Does God desire the salvation of all men, even those for whom He always knew will definitely be damned? Yes, He gives all men all the graces necessary for salvation, abundantly, without ever holding back. It is their Free Will to reject those graces, and so God allows it: saving them in spite of their choices would be denying them their Free Will.

Does the fact that sin exists take away from God's perfection in creation? No, because God, being omnipotent and omniscient, is able to turn any evil into an infinitely greater good. A saint can be born to fornicating parents. God does that not by reacting to evil, but by foreseeing it and having it in mind all along. He can make up for sin, in two ways: through Justice that demands sacrifice be paid for sin, and through Mercy by which sins of men are forgiven. Both are given to us through Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, the perfect sacrifice slaughtered for the sins of men, who is also the Judge of the living and the dead.

Adam and Eve, just like the angels, were created perfect. God did not create any flaw in them. They were free of concupiscence, without any inclination to sin. But they had free will, and thus, they necessarily had the ability to sin. This is why their original sins were necessarily mortal. They were not inclined by their nature to do evil, quite the contrary, they were created to be good. So when they sinned, they chose evil rationally, intentionally, in direct disobedience to God, in pride, understanding well that what they were doing was evil (but clearly not knowing the consequences of it, their fall). Therefore, even a tiniest transgression was a mortal sin to them. Now, angels are not related to each other, each one of them committed his own personal original sin. But Adam and Eve transmitted their fallen nature to their offspring. So we are born defective, with natural inclination to do evil. We did not choose it, just like a child of an alcoholic mother did not choose to be born defective, and therefore we are not personally responsible for our fallen nature. God understands, feels pity for us, and is merciful. He gives us graces to be good and does not count our every sin as mortal.

Therefore, it would be incorrect to think that sin thwarts God's plan for a perfect creation in any way. God foresaw it all and infinitely makes up for it, His creation is no less perfect because of it. While this is now beyond our knowledge, one day everyone will understand that every consequence of every action, even sin, ultimately has a good end, for God's greater glory. Those who end up damned have nobody but themselves to blame, it being their free choice. There will be no objection to God's Judgement: everyone, blessed and damned, will agree that God's Justice is perfect, there being nothing unfair about it.

[Michael Wilson]

God does not will us to sin.  But it was his will to create the exact universe that we live in now?  All the people that exist, who could only exist because of certain choices being made, many of them sinful.  If this is what God determined to create, and he determined it prior to our existence, how can our will still be free?

God willed to create intelligent creatures; both angels and men; He created them for the purpose that they would adore Him as their Lord, Creator and ultimate end; and He invited them into His most intimate relationship of love and mutual friendship. But He also wanted us/them to love Him freely and willingly, and to do so, He gave both of us (angels and men) free will; with the consequence that we could also refuse to love, adore and serve Him. This is the world that God willed.

Is it that God foresaw our choices, and ordained creation in light of what he saw our free choices would be?  If so, why did he prefer a world where we sinned as opposed to one where we didn't?  Is it just so that we could freely choose to love him?  If so, could he hypothetically have created a world where we freely chose to love him but no one sinned?  Or no one chose not to freely love him?

He foresaw the fall of angels and men; and He also foresaw the love, obedience and virtues of those who corresponded to His grace and love. He therefore accepted the first because the second compensated above and beyond the fault of the first.
Could He have created us without the will to sin??? Good question; I theoretically He could have. 

This is one of my hang ups.  If God chose the best possible world to create, then it sounds like it was not possible for him to create a universe where we truly had free will and also everyone freely chose to love him.

I think it might be possible. I have to look this up. 

And yet, Jesus said of Judas that it was better if he had not been born.  So best for God isn't necessarily best for us.  Why would God create a world that included some for whom it would have been better that they had not been created at all, if it also is his will that none should perish and he truly loves all?  Wouldn't his love for the soul mean that he would forsake his own perfect plan for a slightly less perfect plan that didn't require someone he loved to be better off not born?

I don't know the answer.

Can we say that it was merely God's will to create a universe where all had free will to choose to love him, and that he passively allowed everyone to sin, even though that was against his will, because it was a logical necessity in order to freely choose?  That is, God didn't specifically will for the Holocaust or any other evil even to take place, but merely allowed it, and didn't have a specific plan for the Holocaust either taking place or not taking place?  If he created with the intent of the Holocaust taking place, and actively rejected other possibilities because of what he wanted to bring about, how could it also be true that those who were responsible for the Holocaust truly had free will?

Man was created by God with a free will; and Original Sin and its consequences, did not deprive him of it.
So those who massacred the Jews in the 1940's did so freely; not because God wanted the Jews killed, or that he wanted those who massacred them to do so. But because in those events, God was able to draw good out of evil.

If God's plan for the universe was more loose, and dependent on our choices for how it unfolded - that is, he didn't have an intricately detailed plan that had to unfold a particular way, but was more intent on setting it in motion and letting our choices determine how it unfolded, I don't really see a problem with that.  But if he had a specific plan that he was only going to allow that one plan to come to fruition, then even if he planned it with our choices being truly free, I don't see how it is logically possible that our wills weren't in someway coerced to bring it about.  How could only one particular universe be allowed by God - one specific chain of events that he wanted to create - and also our wills be completely free to choose, even choices that would alter his plan, but we infallibly always choose in a way that brings about the only order of events that he would allow to be created?

We only know by divine revelation, that God had a specific plan and at the same time men and angels are free to obey God and carry out His plan or to disobey Him and try to impede His will. But God cannot be thwarted and yet we are free.

[james03]

If this is what God determined to create, and he determined it prior to our existence, how can our will still be free?

I'm laughing, not at you, because you keep conflating the perspectives, even though I've noticed you try not to.  It is tough, no doubt.  There is no synergy between the perspectives.

Try to construct a logical syllogism starting with the OUTCOME "Is" from God's perspective and concluding this means our will can not be absolutely free. You'll discover that you can't.

[Melkite]

If this is what God determined to create, and he determined it prior to our existence, how can our will still be free?

I'm laughing, not at you, because you keep conflating the perspectives, even though I've noticed you try not to.  It is tough, no doubt.  There is no synergy between the perspectives.

Try to construct a logical syllogism starting with the OUTCOME "Is" from God's perspective and concluding this means our will can not be absolutely free. You'll discover that you can't.

It seems like you're saying, if we could look at eternity linearly, that the entire universe takes place on one point of the eternal line (I know, it isn't really linear), and that our choices are truly free because in that one point, there is no coersion.  The moment before out choice and the moment after, on our time line, happens at the same point on the eternal "line."  So God isn't really forcing our decision, because to him, there is no before our decision and no after it.  But then entirely independently, God knew from before all time the world he wanted to create, and our choices made no differences in that.  Is that it, or sort of it?

[james03]

and our choices made no differences in that.  Is that it, or sort of it?

No.  God Wills our free choice.  God INCORPORATES our free will choice into His Sovereign Plan.  (Note, I'm dropping the strange verb-tensing because you get it.  I could say God "is-incorporated".)

In some sense our free will choice "mattered".  For example, the devil worshiper's free-will choice to worship the devil mattered because God seeing/noting this worked the miracle to convert him.

We have absolute free will.  We are not coerced, except by miracles.  And even then it is not strict coercion. 

[Melkite]

and our choices made no differences in that.  Is that it, or sort of it?

No.  God Wills our free choice.  God INCORPORATES our free will choice into His Sovereign Plan.  (Note, I'm dropping the strange verb-tensing because you get it.  I could say God "is-incorporated".)

In some sense our free will choice "mattered".  For example, the devil worshiper's free-will choice to worship the devil mattered because God seeing/noting this worked the miracle to convert him.

We have absolute free will.  We are not coerced, except by miracles.  And even then it is not strict coercion. 

Ok.  The only thing I'm still not getting then is how God willed our absolute free will AND ALSO had one particular sovereign plan.  Unless, that sovereign plan was determined by his foreknowledge of what choices we would make freely?  If that's the case, then I don't see any problem.

[james03]

Since God is already "there" when you made your decisions, of course He has "fore"knowledge.  Therefore He incorporated (from our perspective) our free will choices into His plan.

[Michael]

james03 is assuming a controversial view of identity wherein only one line if events could have led to his existence.

Since God is already "there" when you made your decisions, of course He has "fore"knowledge.  Therefore He incorporated (from our perspective) our free will choices into His plan.

There is a huge problem with saying all our choices are present to God's eternal gaze:

𝐼𝑛𝑑𝑒𝑒𝑑, 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑤ℎ𝑜𝑙𝑒 𝑐𝑜𝑛𝑐𝑒𝑝𝑡 𝑜𝑓 𝑎 𝑡𝑖𝑚𝑒𝑙𝑒𝑠𝑠 𝑒𝑡𝑒𝑟𝑛𝑖𝑡𝑦, 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑤ℎ𝑜𝑙𝑒 𝑜𝑓 𝑤ℎ𝑖𝑐ℎ 𝑖𝑠 𝑠𝑖𝑚𝑢𝑙𝑡𝑎𝑛𝑒𝑜𝑢𝑠 𝑤𝑖𝑡ℎ 𝑒𝑣𝑒𝑟𝑦 𝑝𝑎𝑟𝑡 𝑜𝑓 𝑡𝑖𝑚𝑒, 𝑠𝑒𝑒𝑚𝑠 𝑡𝑜 𝑏𝑒 𝑟𝑎𝑑𝑖𝑐𝑎𝑙𝑙𝑦 𝑖𝑛𝑐𝑜ℎ𝑒𝑟𝑒𝑛𝑡. 𝐹𝑜𝑟 𝑠𝑖𝑚𝑢𝑙𝑡𝑎𝑛𝑒𝑖𝑡𝑦 𝑎𝑠 𝑜𝑟𝑑𝑖𝑛𝑎𝑟𝑖𝑙𝑦 𝑢𝑛𝑑𝑒𝑟𝑠𝑡𝑜𝑜𝑑 𝑖𝑠 𝑎 𝑡𝑟𝑎𝑛𝑠𝑖𝑡𝑖𝑣𝑒 𝑟𝑒𝑙𝑎𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛. 𝐼𝑓 𝐴 ℎ𝑎𝑝𝑝𝑒𝑛𝑠 𝑎𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑠𝑎𝑚𝑒 𝑡𝑖𝑚𝑒 𝑎𝑠 𝐵, 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝐵 ℎ𝑎𝑝𝑝𝑒𝑛𝑠 𝑎𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑠𝑎𝑚𝑒 𝑡𝑖𝑚𝑒 𝑎𝑠 𝐶, 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑛 𝐴 ℎ𝑎𝑝𝑝𝑒𝑛𝑠 𝑎𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑠𝑎𝑚𝑒 𝑡𝑖𝑚𝑒 𝑎𝑠 𝐶. 𝐼𝑓 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝐵𝐵𝐶 𝑝𝑟𝑜𝑔𝑟𝑎𝑚𝑚𝑒 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑙𝑇𝑉 𝑝𝑟𝑜𝑔𝑟𝑎𝑚𝑚𝑒 𝑏𝑜𝑡ℎ 𝑠𝑡𝑎𝑟𝑡 𝑤ℎ𝑒𝑛 𝐵𝑖𝑔 𝐵𝑒𝑛 𝑠𝑡𝑟𝑖𝑘𝑒𝑠 𝑡𝑒𝑛, 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑛 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑦 𝑏𝑜𝑡ℎ 𝑠𝑡𝑎𝑟𝑡 𝑎𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑠𝑎𝑚𝑒 𝑡𝑖𝑚𝑒. 𝐵𝑢𝑡, 𝑜𝑛 𝑆𝑡. 𝑇ℎ𝑜𝑚𝑎𝑠' 𝑣𝑖𝑒𝑤, 𝑚𝑦 𝑡𝑦𝑝𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑜𝑓 𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑠 𝑝𝑎𝑝𝑒𝑟 𝑖𝑠 𝑠𝑖𝑚𝑢𝑙𝑡𝑎𝑛𝑒𝑜𝑢𝑠 𝑤𝑖𝑡ℎ 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑤ℎ𝑜𝑙𝑒 𝑜𝑓 𝑒𝑡𝑒𝑟𝑛𝑖𝑡𝑦. 𝐴𝑔𝑎𝑖𝑛, 𝑜𝑛 ℎ𝑖𝑠 𝑣𝑖𝑒𝑤, 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑔𝑟𝑒𝑎𝑡 𝑓𝑖𝑟𝑒 𝑜𝑓 𝑅𝑜𝑚𝑒 𝑖𝑠 𝑠𝑖𝑚𝑢𝑙𝑡𝑎𝑛𝑒𝑜𝑢𝑠 𝑤𝑖𝑡ℎ 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑤ℎ𝑜𝑙𝑒 𝑜𝑓 𝑒𝑡𝑒𝑟𝑛𝑖𝑡𝑦. 𝑇ℎ𝑒𝑟𝑒𝑓𝑜𝑟𝑒, 𝑤ℎ𝑖𝑙𝑒 𝐼 𝑡𝑦𝑝𝑒 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑠𝑒 𝑣𝑒𝑟𝑦 𝑤𝑜𝑟𝑑𝑠, 𝑁𝑒𝑟𝑜 𝑓𝑖𝑑𝑑𝑙𝑒𝑠 ℎ𝑒𝑎𝑟𝑡𝑙𝑒𝑠𝑠𝑙𝑦 𝑜𝑛. -ANTHONY KENNY - DIVINE FOREKNOWLEDGE AND HUMAN FREEDOM. In: AQUINAS: A Collection of Critical Essays EDITED BY ANTHONY KENNY

You'll have to come up with a better theory of God's knowledge of future contingents. Firstly, what even grounds the truth of future contingents? My choice to do A rather than B tomorrow doesn't exist yet, so how could it be true?

[Michael Wilson]

𝐼𝑛𝑑𝑒𝑒𝑑, 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑤ℎ𝑜𝑙𝑒 𝑐𝑜𝑛𝑐𝑒𝑝𝑡 𝑜𝑓 𝑎 𝑡𝑖𝑚𝑒𝑙𝑒𝑠𝑠 𝑒𝑡𝑒𝑟𝑛𝑖𝑡𝑦, 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑤ℎ𝑜𝑙𝑒 𝑜𝑓 𝑤ℎ𝑖𝑐ℎ 𝑖𝑠 𝑠𝑖𝑚𝑢𝑙𝑡𝑎𝑛𝑒𝑜𝑢𝑠 𝑤𝑖𝑡ℎ 𝑒𝑣𝑒𝑟𝑦 𝑝𝑎𝑟𝑡 𝑜𝑓 𝑡𝑖𝑚𝑒, 𝑠𝑒𝑒𝑚𝑠 𝑡𝑜 𝑏𝑒 𝑟𝑎𝑑𝑖𝑐𝑎𝑙𝑙𝑦 𝑖𝑛𝑐𝑜ℎ𝑒𝑟𝑒𝑛𝑡. 𝐹𝑜𝑟 𝑠𝑖𝑚𝑢𝑙𝑡𝑎𝑛𝑒𝑖𝑡𝑦 𝑎𝑠 𝑜𝑟𝑑𝑖𝑛𝑎𝑟𝑖𝑙𝑦 𝑢𝑛𝑑𝑒𝑟𝑠𝑡𝑜𝑜𝑑 𝑖𝑠 𝑎 𝑡𝑟𝑎𝑛𝑠𝑖𝑡𝑖𝑣𝑒 𝑟𝑒𝑙𝑎𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛. 𝐼𝑓 𝐴 ℎ𝑎𝑝𝑝𝑒𝑛𝑠 𝑎𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑠𝑎𝑚𝑒 𝑡𝑖𝑚𝑒 𝑎𝑠 𝐵, 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝐵 ℎ𝑎𝑝𝑝𝑒𝑛𝑠 𝑎𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑠𝑎𝑚𝑒 𝑡𝑖𝑚𝑒 𝑎𝑠 𝐶, 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑛 𝐴 ℎ𝑎𝑝𝑝𝑒𝑛𝑠 𝑎𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑠𝑎𝑚𝑒 𝑡𝑖𝑚𝑒 𝑎𝑠 𝐶. 𝐼𝑓 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝐵𝐵𝐶 𝑝𝑟𝑜𝑔𝑟𝑎𝑚𝑚𝑒 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑙𝑇𝑉 𝑝𝑟𝑜𝑔𝑟𝑎𝑚𝑚𝑒 𝑏𝑜𝑡ℎ 𝑠𝑡𝑎𝑟𝑡 𝑤ℎ𝑒𝑛 𝐵𝑖𝑔 𝐵𝑒𝑛 𝑠𝑡𝑟𝑖𝑘𝑒𝑠 𝑡𝑒𝑛, 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑛 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑦 𝑏𝑜𝑡ℎ 𝑠𝑡𝑎𝑟𝑡 𝑎𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑠𝑎𝑚𝑒 𝑡𝑖𝑚𝑒. 𝐵𝑢𝑡, 𝑜𝑛 𝑆𝑡. 𝑇ℎ𝑜𝑚𝑎𝑠' 𝑣𝑖𝑒𝑤, 𝑚𝑦 𝑡𝑦𝑝𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑜𝑓 𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑠 𝑝𝑎𝑝𝑒𝑟 𝑖𝑠 𝑠𝑖𝑚𝑢𝑙𝑡𝑎𝑛𝑒𝑜𝑢𝑠 𝑤𝑖𝑡ℎ 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑤ℎ𝑜𝑙𝑒 𝑜𝑓 𝑒𝑡𝑒𝑟𝑛𝑖𝑡𝑦. 𝐴𝑔𝑎𝑖𝑛, 𝑜𝑛 ℎ𝑖𝑠 𝑣𝑖𝑒𝑤, 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑔𝑟𝑒𝑎𝑡 𝑓𝑖𝑟𝑒 𝑜𝑓 𝑅𝑜𝑚𝑒 𝑖𝑠 𝑠𝑖𝑚𝑢𝑙𝑡𝑎𝑛𝑒𝑜𝑢𝑠 𝑤𝑖𝑡ℎ 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑤ℎ𝑜𝑙𝑒 𝑜𝑓 𝑒𝑡𝑒𝑟𝑛𝑖𝑡𝑦. 𝑇ℎ𝑒𝑟𝑒𝑓𝑜𝑟𝑒, 𝑤ℎ𝑖𝑙𝑒 𝐼 𝑡𝑦𝑝𝑒 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑠𝑒 𝑣𝑒𝑟𝑦 𝑤𝑜𝑟𝑑𝑠, 𝑁𝑒𝑟𝑜 𝑓𝑖𝑑𝑑𝑙𝑒𝑠 ℎ𝑒𝑎𝑟𝑡𝑙𝑒𝑠𝑠𝑙𝑦 𝑜𝑛. -ANTHONY KENNY - DIVINE FOREKNOWLEDGE AND HUMAN FREEDOM. In: AQUINAS: A Collection of Critical Essays EDITED BY ANTHONY KENNY

Because you are conflating two different orders: God lives always in the "Now"; there is no past or future with Him; so in God's perspective, Rome is burning, Columbus is discovering America, and the astronauts are landing on the Moon. But since we are not eternal, but live in time, these events occur consecutively.

[Michael]

Do you think the future exists?

[Michael Wilson]

Do you think the future exists?

For us creatures it does; we are born, we live and we die; even when we are in heaven (or Hell) there will be a past, present and future.