Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?

[Gardener]

https://www.catholic.com/tract/the-intercession-of-the-saints

More in link (probably some overlap)

Veneration of the mere dead would be pointless were they, the Saints, not alive in Christ and, as Scripture shows with Tradition witnessing, not only believed to be able, but truly able to intercede in Heaven for us.

He is the God of the living (Mt 22).

[Mono no aware]

Tobias 12:"[11] I discover then the truth unto you, and I will not hide the secret from you. [12] When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead, and didst leave thy dinner, and hide the dead by day in thy house, and bury them by night, I offered thy prayer to the Lord. [13] And because thou wast acceptable to God, it was necessary that temptation should prove thee. [14] And now the Lord hath sent me to heal thee, and to deliver Sara thy son's wife from the devil. [15] For I am the angel Raphael, one of the seven, who stand before the Lord."

This is quite in accord with the scenario in Revelation 5:8, where the elders bring froth the bowls of incense and prayers.  There is definitely a Hebraic notion of heaven where angels and saints present prayers before the majesty of God.  But it still doesn't say that these prayers are addressed to the angels and the saints.  They seem to be prayers asked of God, and carried to him ceremoniously by the angels.  At least there is no mention of Raphael being the designated recipient of the prayer.  Raphael says "I offered thy prayer to the Lord."  He doesn't say, "I prayed to the Lord as thou asked of me."  This, again, is an implicit passage, where the doctrine can comfortably fit in, but it works just as well without it.  It's an either/or.

[Mono no aware]

This is a practice peculiar to one particular region, never universal among Christians like praying for intercession from saints, so it makes little sense to see it as a product of diffusion from the Hebrew source. I also know of no evidence of Hebrews or Jews sacrificing animals to holy men, so it has no direct precedent.

A territory ranging over Turkey, Greece, Armenia, and Bulgaria can't really be called an insignificant region, though.  It was condemned at a synod in Carthage, so it must've been known of even in North Africa.  It does seem to have happened that some Jews made holocausts to Michael, since the practice was mentioned in a condemnation:

R. Ishmael, in Mek., Yithro, x., expressly applies the prohibition of idolatry to the likeness of angels of the ofanim and cherubim (compare Targ. Yer. to Ex. xx. 20). "He who slaughters an animal in the name of sun, moon, stars, and planets, or in the name of Michael, the great captain of the heavenly hosts, renders the same an offering to dead idols" (?ul. 40a; 'Ab. Zarah, 42b).

[Mono no aware]

Veneration of the mere dead would be pointless were they, the Saints, not alive in Christ and, as Scripture shows with Tradition witnessing, not only believed to be able, but truly able to intercede in Heaven for us.

This doesn't follow.  Veneration is its own reward.  If you read the passage from the Martyrdom of Polycarp on your own list, it indicates that the veneration of the saints is, itself, pleasing to God.  And it certainly isn't pointless: it says the practice renews their ardor to follow in the martyr's footsteps.

You can certainly have veneration without praying to the deceased, and you could logically have praying to the deceased without veneration.  Both could be self-contained and not dependent on each other.  The latter, of course, is psychologically dependent on the former.  As I mentioned earlier in the thread, we can see this even in contemporary Protestantism, where obvious aspects of veneration keep creeping back in.  And sometimes they even talk to the dead in their eulogies, or in private moments.  They're known to cast the dead in roles of quasi-guardian angels: "Clayton, darling, I know you're up there looking after me."  Isolate them from an anti-Catholic prejudice, and many of them would probably evolve praying to the dead.  It seems to be a natural progression for the human psyche:

honor ? veneration ? conversation ? supplication.

[mikemac]

Tobias 12:"[11] I discover then the truth unto you, and I will not hide the secret from you. [12] When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead, and didst leave thy dinner, and hide the dead by day in thy house, and bury them by night, I offered thy prayer to the Lord. [13] And because thou wast acceptable to God, it was necessary that temptation should prove thee. [14] And now the Lord hath sent me to heal thee, and to deliver Sara thy son's wife from the devil. [15] For I am the angel Raphael, one of the seven, who stand before the Lord."

This is quite in accord with the scenario in Revelation 5:8, where the elders bring froth the bowls of incense and prayers.  There is definitely a Hebraic notion of heaven where angels and saints present prayers before the majesty of God.  But it still doesn't say that these prayers are addressed to the angels and the saints.  They seem to be prayers asked of God, and carried to him ceremoniously by the angels.  At least there is no mention of Raphael being the designated recipient of the prayer.  Raphael says "I offered thy prayer to the Lord."  He doesn't say, "I prayed to the Lord as thou asked of me."  This, again, is an implicit passage, where the doctrine can comfortably fit in, but it works just as well without it.  It's an either/or.

But it clearly shows that Raphael interceded to God for Tobias.  Hmm ... maybe that's why they prayed to the saints and angels for intercession.

[Mono no aware]

But it clearly shows that Raphael interceded to God for Tobias.

Agreed.

Hmm ... maybe that's why they prayed to the saints and angels for intercession.

But that's what the text is missing.  It's possible to read that back into the text, but you'd be assuming the conclusion.  The text itself is inconclusive.

All the other mentions in the OT seem to read the same way: angels interceding, but with no mention of prayers being addressed specifically to angels.  There are a hundred and fifty psalms; do any of them contain a petition addressed to an angel?

[Vetus Ordo]

All the other mentions in the OT seem to read the same way: angels interceding, but with no mention of prayers being addressed specifically to angels.  There are a hundred and fifty psalms; do any of them contain a petition addressed to an angel?

Curiously, in Islam the angels also intercede in behalf of believers, invoking blessings upon them, recording their prayers and beseeching mercy for them.

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (s.a.w.) as saying: The angels invoke blessings on everyone among you so long as he is in a place of worship with these words: O Allah! pardon him, O Allah, have mercy upon him, (and they continue to do so) as long as, he ablution (of the worshipper) is not broken, and one among you is in prayer and so long as he is detained for the prayer. [Sahih Muslim]

Mulla Ali al Qari mentions, [the angel to the right] writes down good works which are a sign of mercy. [Mulla Ali Qari: Sharh Mishkat]

Bara bin Azib said, "I heard the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.) say: 'Allah and the angels send blessings upon the first row.'" [Ibn Majah]

Other angels are responsible for protecting the believer throughout his life, when he stays home and when he travels, when he is asleep and when he is awake. These are the mu?aqqib?tun, the angels in succession, concerning whom Allah says in Surat al-Ra'd:

"For each (such person) there are (angels) in succession, before and behind him: They guard him by command of Allah. Allah does not change a people's lot unless they change what is in their hearts. But when (once) Allah willeth a people's punishment, there can be no turning it back, nor will they find, besides Him, any to protect." [13:10-11]

[Mono no aware]

Gracias, Vetus.  Do Muslims pray to the angels for their intercession, or do the angels see the piety and righteousness and prayer (to Allah) of Muslims, and then intercede?  The latter appears to be the OT pattern.  Is Islamic angelology believed to come from its Judaic influences or its Christian ones?

And do you think the qurban sacrifice at Eid has its origins in Judaism, Christianity, or Arabic paganism?  The divvying up of the body parts and the giving of them to the poor seems to echo the Christian version.  Apart from the Paschal sacrifice, I believe Jewish holocausts were typically burnt after the ritual slaughter, were they not?

[Vetus Ordo]

Gracias, Vetus.  Do Muslims pray to the angels for their intercession, or do the angels see the piety and righteousness and prayer (to Allah) of Muslims, and then intercede? The latter appears to be the OT pattern. Is Islamic angelology believed to come from its Judaic influences or its Christian ones?

They do not pray to the angels. Prayer is exclusively offered to Allah in Islam.

The overarching Abrahamic theme, however, seems to portray the angels as supernatural agents that intercede and present prayers to God. I think there's a cultural and theological continuum there with Judaism and even with Christianity to an extent.

And do you think the qurban sacrifice at Eid has its origins in Judaism, Christianity, or Arabic paganism? The divvying up of the body parts and the giving of them to the poor seems to echo the Christian version. Apart from the Paschal sacrifice, I believe Jewish holocausts were typically burnt after the ritual slaughter, were they not?

I believe so, regarding the Jewish holocausts, but I'm not entirely sure. I don't want to give false information.

As for the Islamic qurban and Eid ul-Adha, it seems to point to a common Abrahamic source. A ritual feast instituted by Muhammad, certainly, but that reflects an idea of common descent from Abraham that was not entirely lost in the mist of Arabian time. It is a communal remembrance of Abraham's sacrifice to God: the patriarch had shown that his love for the Almighty superseded all others and so must the love of Muslims for Allah supersede all others: the festival is a symbolic yearly renewal of one's submission to the will of God and also an opportunity to practice social charity, as you pointed out.

[mikemac]

But it clearly shows that Raphael interceded to God for Tobias.

Agreed.

Hmm ... maybe that's why they prayed to the saints and angels for intercession.

But that's what the text is missing.  It's possible to read that back into the text, but you'd be assuming the conclusion.  The text itself is inconclusive.

All the other mentions in the OT seem to read the same way: angels interceding, but with no mention of prayers being addressed specifically to angels.  There are a hundred and fifty psalms; do any of them contain a petition addressed to an angel?

https://www.learnreligions.com/jewish-guardian-angel-prayers-124055

Jewish Guardian Angel Prayers
Prayers for Help from Guardian Angels in Judaism

Guardian angels watch over people and care for them during every part of their lives, believers say. Here are some guardian angel prayers from Judaism:


The Shalom Aleichem Prayer (Sung Before Shabbat Meals)

"We wish you peace, guardian angels of service, angels of the most high, from the King of kings, the Holy One, praised be he."


Bedtime Prayer (Part of the Shema) Asking God to Send Archangels to Guard You

"To God Almighty, the Lord of Israel: May Michael be at my right hand, Gabriel at my left hand, before me Raphael and behind me Uriel, and above me the divine presence of God."


Jacob's Blessing Prayer

"May the angel who redeems me from all evil bless the children. In them may my name be recalled, and the names of my fathers Abraham and Isaac, and may they flourish as multitudes upon the earth."


Prayer to Ask Guardian Angels to Deliver Your Prayers to God

"Usherers of mercy, usher in our plea for mercy, before the master of mercy, you who cause prayer to be heard, may you cause our prayer to be heard before the Hearer of prayer.

You who cause our outcry to be heard, may you cause our outcry to be heard, before the Hearer of outcry.

You who usher in tears, may you usher in our tears, before the King who finds favor through tears.

Exert yourselves and multiply supplication and petition before the king, God, exalted and most high."

But I'm sure this still will not satisfy your pride.

[Kreuzritter]

All the other mentions in the OT seem to read the same way: angels interceding, but with no mention of prayers being addressed specifically to angels.  There are a hundred and fifty psalms; do any of them contain a petition addressed to an angel?

Genesis 48:16 The angel that delivereth me from all evils, bless these boys: and let my name be called upon them, and the names of my fathers Abraham, and Isaac, and may they grow into a multitude upon the earth.

[Mono no aware]

I'm sure this still will not satisfy your pride.

Your gratuitous insult aside, I think the latter two are the best citations yet provided on this thread.  I'm not sure why you included the first two, though: the Shalom Aleichem Prayer is clearly not a supplication, and the bedtime prayer is addressed directly to God.

This leaves us with the guardian angel prayer and Jacob's prayer to bless his grandsons.  Two questions: does the guardian angel prayer date to pre-Christian Judaism, or is it from Talmudic Judaism?  And the prayer of Jacob: why does it read as if he starts off praying directly to God, and then suddenly switches to an angel?  Here is the complete prayer:

Then he blessed them with these words:

"May the God in whose presence
my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked,
The God who has been my shepherd
from my birth to this day,
The angel who has delivered me from all harm,
bless these boys
That in them my name be recalled,
and the names of my fathers, Abraham and Isaac,
And they may become teeming multitudes
upon the earth!"

If praying to an angel is intended to have the angel pray to God, why does Jacob invoke God first?  Obviously he is praying to an angel, but in the same breath he had just been praying to God.  It seems strange is all.

[Miriam_M]

Pon,
I wonder if we will ever know all these academic answers before Heaven, but to me, the larger question -- intellectually curious as I am about many unanswered questions, including these technical ones -- does it really matter?  Personally, I know that I need all the help I can get on the journey to an ultimate destination, and I surely don't want it to be Hell, through my negligence or intellectual distraction along the way.  Thus, God sees my prayers and the similarly desperate prayers and supplications of believers and wannabe believers, who don't "know" if they're praying directly to God, "to" an intercessor, or whatever the mechanism is.  He doesn't care. What He's looking at is the sincerity and humility of our hearts and whether we are really seeking Him (not "facts" about Him, not verification about the mechanics of prayer, but Him), and He will sort it all out.

[Kreuzritter]

Two questions: does the guardian angel prayer date to pre-Christian Judaism, or is it from Talmudic Judaism?

Dunno.

And the prayer of Jacob: why does it read as if he starts off praying directly to God, and then suddenly switches to an angel?  Here is the complete prayer:

If praying to an angel is intended to have the angel pray to God, why does Jacob invoke God first?  Obviously he is praying to an angel, but in the same breath he had just been praying to God.  It seems strange is all.

Oh, I don't know. Depends on how he intended the angel to bless? But angels can be invoked to do something directly. It's not "Michael, please pray to God to protect me" but "Michael, protect me". God has imbued these creature with power. Personally, I'd always pray to and invoke the name of God first, as a rule.

[Vetus Ordo]

does it really matter?

Yes it does.

You are commanded to worship God alone. If praying to intercessors were forbidden by divine Law, then it would objectively constitute a matter of idolatry, a sin against the highest of commandments.

God sees my prayers and the similarly desperate prayers and supplications of believers and wannabe believers, who don't "know" if they're praying directly to God, "to" an intercessor, or whatever the mechanism is. He doesn't care.

The God of Revelation cares.

Only the God of deists or hippies doesn't care if people commit idolatry or not.