Author Topic: Prenuptial Agreements  (Read 623 times)

Offline GiftOfGod

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Prenuptial Agreements
« on: September 13, 2021, 08:31:00 PM »
Is there a pre-Vatican II source on whether prenuptial agreements affect the validity of the Sacrament of Matrimony? All I see are Frankenchurch blowhards implying that it might but never providing a source except for some 1983 Canon Law that they say applied but it actually doesn't. I have heard that Fr. Ripperger preached against prenuptial agreements in a sermon but he only advised against it.

Do you happen to know any trads that got a prenuptial agreement?
 

Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Prenuptial Agreements
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2021, 08:26:51 AM »
It depends what is in the Pre-nuptial agreement; if it is a clause that attempts against the ends of marriage, for example, the exclusion of children; the indissolubility of the bond etc. It would invalidate the marriage. If it has to do with purely financial matters such as what property will belong to who; it's probably legal.
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Offline GiftOfGod

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Re: Prenuptial Agreements
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2021, 03:17:56 PM »
It depends what is in the Pre-nuptial agreement; if it is a clause that attempts against the ends of marriage, for example, the exclusion of children; the indissolubility of the bond etc. It would invalidate the marriage. If it has to do with purely financial matters such as what property will belong to who; it's probably legal.
Those are my thoughts. By the way, according to my research, most states only enforce financial provisions as that's what a prenup is supposed to be about.
 
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Offline Frank

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Re: Prenuptial Agreements
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2021, 05:14:43 PM »
Is the bit: "With all my worldly goods I thee endow." optional?  :-\
in principio erat Verbum et Verbum erat apud Deum et Deus erat Verbum
hoc erat in principio apud Deum
omnia per ipsum facta sunt et sine ipso factum est nihil quod factum est
 
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Offline GiftOfGod

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Re: Prenuptial Agreements
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2021, 06:56:56 PM »
Is the bit: "With all my worldly goods I thee endow." optional?  :-\

I had never heard of that until your post. I searched for that phrase on the Internet and the top result was "1789 Book of Common Prayer" and the third was "Traditional Protestant Wedding Vows". Are/were you an Anglican by any chance?
 

Offline Gardener

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Re: Prenuptial Agreements
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2021, 07:05:40 PM »
One place it might be handy, depending on the laws in one's area, is to pre-set up legal entities (trusts, etc.) which are not "marital" property in the event of a death of the spouse, etc., depending on how those would be taxed in death.

This would potentially ensure that the surviving spouse wasn't left with less, rather than more, depending on the laws.

There are also situations in which people find that they might actually "need" to have a civil divorce (though stay together) in order to help a spouse get certain breaks on healthcare costs or something where the couple isn't rendered corporately homeless or in dire financial straights. The intention wouldn't be to screw over one party, but would be there in the event of such a need arising to assist the couple in actuality. I wouldn't see that as a problem since civil marriage does not a marriage make, and a rogue judge might divide the property without a pre-nup in such a way that the tactic is rendered moot. But it would have to be understood by both parties as to what it is and isn't.
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Offline MaximGun

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Re: Prenuptial Agreements
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2021, 07:37:04 PM »
Some people love their money more than their marriage.

Especially in the USA.
 
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Offline Gardener

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Re: Prenuptial Agreements
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2021, 07:51:29 PM »
Some people love their money more than their marriage.

Especially in the USA.

And in the USA the government punishes marriage in certain situations, particularly medical issues.

“The Modern Attack will not tolerate us. It will attempt to
destroy us. Nor can we tolerate it. We must attempt to destroy it as being the fully equipped and ardent enemy of the Truth by which men live. The duel is to the death.” - Hilaire Belloc, The Great Heresies
 

Offline GiftOfGod

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Re: Prenuptial Agreements
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2021, 08:02:15 PM »
Some people love their money more than their marriage.

Especially in the USA.

It might appear that way to you because the way the laws are currently crafted put men at a disadvantage.

For example:
Husband: Makes $200K per year
Wife: Stay at home with 3 kids
They have a net worth of $1 million
Wife decides to divorce for any reason or no reason at all
Court orders 50% to 75% of net worth (depending on the state) to be given to wife
Court orders 30% of husband's income to be paid to wife in alimony (for life)
Court orders full custody to wife because of the mother's existing relationship with kids plus father can't take off work.
Court orders up to additional 40% of husband's income to be paid to wife as "child support".
If husband works less hours or gets lower-paying job, the court throws him in jail.

That's what happens without a prenuptial agreement. Who's loving money more than marriage now?
 

Offline MaximGun

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Re: Prenuptial Agreements
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2021, 08:06:29 PM »
Then get sacramentally married without a pre-nup.  Ignore an unjust government who have no business turning marriage into a bureaucracy.

A pre-nup in the normal sense of the word is obvious impediment to marriage.  Just don't marry her or him.

Gardener would you go to battle with a man who said' "I will fight by your side in 99% of situations but if we come across a minefield I will run because i have a phobia about being blown up by a mine"?

Why expect more commitment from a fellow solider (fighting to the death) than a wife?  Military bravery in the face of enemy action is not a sacrament.

I can see only limited circumstances for prenups such as where a family business is owned by a trust or multiple sibblings.
 
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Offline ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez

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Re: Prenuptial Agreements
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2021, 08:24:10 PM »
"I'll die to protect you and lead you to salvation, but if you take half my stuff, ho-ho, all bets are off."
 
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Offline Ragnarok

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Re: Prenuptial Agreements
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2021, 11:18:54 PM »
"I'll die to protect you and lead you to salvation, but if you take half my stuff, ho-ho, all bets are off."

Look I may be a lost fool whose probably going to end up in hell, but even I know that women are human beings too are are subject to all the temptations - especially in a world where sex and pornography have destroyed our dopamine receptors and people (myself included) don’t like responsibility for their actions.
 

Offline MaximGun

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Re: Prenuptial Agreements
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2021, 11:51:32 PM »
You will be happier with nothing Anorak.

(You couldn't be anymore miserable).
 
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Offline diaduit

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Re: Prenuptial Agreements
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2021, 03:56:02 PM »


This thread was done to death already and goggy still doesn't understand that a wife places her and her future childrens lives in the hands of hopefully a good husband, sometimes not so good and sometimes a deadbeat....there is risk for us too.

Some people love their money more than their marriage.

Especially in the USA.

It might appear that way to you because the way the laws are currently crafted put men at a disadvantage.

For example:
Husband: Makes $200K per year
Wife: Stay at home with 3 kids
They have a net worth of $1 million
Wife decides to divorce for any reason or no reason at all
Court orders 50% to 75% of net worth (depending on the state) to be given to wife
Court orders 30% of husband's income to be paid to wife in alimony (for life)
Court orders full custody to wife because of the mother's existing relationship with kids plus father can't take off work.
Court orders up to additional 40% of husband's income to be paid to wife as "child support".
If husband works less hours or gets lower-paying job, the court throws him in jail.

That's what happens without a prenuptial agreement. Who's loving money more than marriage now?


I can see only limited circumstances for prenups such as where a family business is owned by a trust or multiple sibblings.
[/quote]

Are those figures close to reality? Certainly not here in Ireland.  House/assets/savings gets sold and proceeds split in two, average guy pays on average €50 - €150 pw for all the kids depending on how many kids and how much he earns until they're 18.  Of course there are some anomalies and that is just a basic view on divorce here.
 

Offline ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez

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Re: Prenuptial Agreements
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2021, 04:03:10 PM »
Are those figures close to reality? Certainly not here in Ireland.  House/assets/savings gets sold and proceeds split in two, average guy pays on average €50 - €150 pw for all the kids depending on how many kids and how much he earns until they're 18.  Of course there are some anomalies and that is just a basic view on divorce here.

The income and net worth numbers are not realistic (or at least not representative).  The husband in this example is in the top 5% of earners.

But the percentages awarded by a court are, unfortunately, realistic.