Author Topic: Why I disagree with implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics  (Read 1092 times)

Offline Mattchew83

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Why I disagree with implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics
« on: September 06, 2021, 07:52:24 PM »
“And the ignorance of those things of salvation, the knowledge of which men did not care to have is without doubt, a sin for them; but for those who were not able to acquire such knowledge, the want of it is a punishment for their sins,” says St. Augustine; hence both are justly condemned, and neither the one nor the other has a just excuse for being lost.” (Epist. ad Sixtum, Edit. Maur. 194, cap. vi., n. 27.)

 “Their inculpable (invincible) ignorance will not save them; but if they fear God and live up to their conscience, God, in his infinite mercy, will furnish them with the necessary means of salvation, even so as to send, if needed, an angel to instruct them in the Catholic faith, rather than let them perish through inculpable ignorance.” (St. Thomas Aquinas.)

St. Thomas Aquinas, De Veritate, 14, A. 11, ad 1: Objection- “It is possible that someone may be brought up in the forest, or among wolves; such a man cannot explicitly know anything about the faith.  St. Thomas replies- It is the characteristic of Divine Providence to provide every man with what is necessary for salvation… provided on his part there is no hindrance.  In the case of a man who seeks good and shuns evil, by the leading of natural reason, God would either reveal to him through internal inspiration what had to be believed, or would send some preacher of the faith to him…"

St. Thomas Aquinas, Sent. II, 28, Q. 1, A. 4, ad 4: “If a man born among barbarian nations, does what he can, God Himself will show him what is necessary for salvation, either by inspiration or sending a teacher to him."


From what St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine say, we must convert to Catholicism before we die. For those who fall into the invincibly ignorant category...if a person is of good will and they imply to God that they would convert to Catholicism....then God will furnish them the means whether it be by sending an angel or a preacher or by internal inspiration. If neither of these occur, and the person dies invincibly ignorant, then there is no salvation for them. It still holds that they must convert to Catholicism before they die. Thus "Outside the Church there is no salvation".

But for those who have heard of the Catholic Church but fail to enter into it (or at least start taking steps to enter into it) before they die...

Why would an invincibly ignorant person/unbaptized infant have no chance for salvation (per St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas) yet someone who has heard of the Catholic Church and fails to enter into it in favor of a false religion, atheism, agnosticism etc. have a chance for salvation? I would say that reason and logic should conclude that those who fall into the later category also do not have a chance for salvation especially since they commit a sin by failing to enter into the Church. If you think they do, please show me evidence of any Church Father/Saint and/or ecumenical council who taught this prior to Vatican II. If you are thinking of referring to Pope Pius IX...it is true that at one time he held that invincibly ignorant people could be saved...but evidence shows that by Vatican I he had reformed this opinion in favor of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. If you are thinking of referring to Pope Pius X when he taught that Invincibly Ignorant people could receive an implicit Baptism of Desire...shouldn't you consider that his credibility is weaken by the fact that, by his time and even before him, the Church had been overrun by heretics (according to marian apparitions and canonized people in the 19th century)...and that he possibly being one of them or deceived by them into believing such a thing. Furthermore, that his canonization should be questioned for the same reason.

If I am right about there being no such thing as implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics...then the SSPX and most Sedevacantists are heretics.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2021, 07:58:47 PM by Mattchew83 »
 

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Why I disagree with implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2021, 05:57:48 AM »
If you are thinking of referring to Pope Pius IX...it is true that at one time he held that invincibly ignorant people could be saved..

It is not true that Pope Pius IX ever taught "that at one time he held that invincibly ignorant people could be saved." One must read and understand the sentence immediately before this one for proper context.

Whenever people think of the possibility of justification and salvation for the invincibly ignorant, they would do themselves a huge favor to *never* use the term "invincibly ignorant", rather, they should always replace that term with: "those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion," - these are the specific people the pope was speaking about. This is what the "struggling" is all about. Such a person is able to attain salvation so long as he continues seek the truth, live a moral life and cooperate with the grace leading him to the true faith.



Even after a long life of sin, if the Christian receives the Sacrament of the dying with the appropriate dispositions, he will go straight to heaven without having to go to purgatory. - Fr. M. Philipon; This sacrament prepares man for glory immediately, since it is given to those who are departing from this life. - St. Thomas Aquinas; It washes away the sins that remain to be atoned, and the vestiges of sin; it comforts and strengthens the soul of the sick person, arousing in him a great trust and confidence in the divine mercy. Thus strengthened, he bears the hardships and struggles of his illness more easily and resists the temptation of the devil and the heel of the deceiver more readily; and if it be advantageous to the welfare of his soul, he sometimes regains his bodily health. - Council of Trent
 

Offline Mattchew83

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Re: Why I disagree with implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2021, 08:57:02 AM »
If you are thinking of referring to Pope Pius IX...it is true that at one time he held that invincibly ignorant people could be saved..

It is not true that Pope Pius IX ever taught "that at one time he held that invincibly ignorant people could be saved." One must read and understand the sentence immediately before this one for proper context.

Whenever people think of the possibility of justification and salvation for the invincibly ignorant, they would do themselves a huge favor to *never* use the term "invincibly ignorant", rather, they should always replace that term with: "those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion," - these are the specific people the pope was speaking about. This is what the "struggling" is all about. Such a person is able to attain salvation so long as he continues seek the truth, live a moral life and cooperate with the grace leading him to the true faith.


How does the following quote by Pope Pius IX not suggest invincible ignorance?

Pius IX. Singulari Quidem. AD 1856.

‘This hope of salvation is placed in the Catholic Church which, in preserving the true worship, is the solid home of this faith and the temple of God. Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control.
 

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Why I disagree with implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2021, 12:10:23 PM »
How does the following quote by Pope Pius IX not suggest invincible ignorance?

Pius IX. Singulari Quidem. AD 1856.

‘This hope of salvation is placed in the Catholic Church which, in preserving the true worship, is the solid home of this faith and the temple of God. Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control.

I agree that it appears as you said, that he is contradicting himself - which can only mean that we are misunderstanding, therefore need to understand it in context of what the Church has always taught, as well as all PPIX's other teachings.

For me, the main point to remember is that if invincible ignorance is not punishable, neither is it meritorious, and Heaven must be merited - no one enters Heaven by default. As such, these words taken in their context, can only mean that God unfailingly inducts such ignorant yet well-disposed individuals into the Church through conversion and the reception of Baptism before they die. 
Even after a long life of sin, if the Christian receives the Sacrament of the dying with the appropriate dispositions, he will go straight to heaven without having to go to purgatory. - Fr. M. Philipon; This sacrament prepares man for glory immediately, since it is given to those who are departing from this life. - St. Thomas Aquinas; It washes away the sins that remain to be atoned, and the vestiges of sin; it comforts and strengthens the soul of the sick person, arousing in him a great trust and confidence in the divine mercy. Thus strengthened, he bears the hardships and struggles of his illness more easily and resists the temptation of the devil and the heel of the deceiver more readily; and if it be advantageous to the welfare of his soul, he sometimes regains his bodily health. - Council of Trent
 

Offline Mattchew83

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Re: Why I disagree with implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2021, 12:20:05 AM »
How does the following quote by Pope Pius IX not suggest invincible ignorance?

Pius IX. Singulari Quidem. AD 1856.

‘This hope of salvation is placed in the Catholic Church which, in preserving the true worship, is the solid home of this faith and the temple of God. Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control.

I agree that it appears as you said, that he is contradicting himself - which can only mean that we are misunderstanding, therefore need to understand it in context of what the Church has always taught, as well as all PPIX's other teachings.

For me, the main point to remember is that if invincible ignorance is not punishable, neither is it meritorious, and Heaven must be merited - no one enters Heaven by default. As such, these words taken in their context, can only mean that God unfailingly inducts such ignorant yet well-disposed individuals into the Church through conversion and the reception of Baptism before they die.

I was reading a thread on Cath info, and it stated that he believed in invincible ignorance but later repented and conformed to Outside the Church there is no salvation. I cant find that thread again unfortunately. But I really hope you are right in your interpretation because, from what I am gathering, this was stated in the magisterium and is infallible. I certainly hope that we cannot find errors and contradictions in such documents.
 

Offline Kathleen

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Re: Why I disagree with implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2021, 01:26:29 PM »
Ah... It's all coming back to me again... the good ol'days from Angelqueen forum and all the guys rolling up their sleeves to punch each other in the head over the never ending  BOD debate. I can almost hear that old server groaning under the terabytes of BOD debate-posts again...
 
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Offline james03

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Re: Why I disagree with implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2021, 10:03:17 AM »
An AQ vet?  I used to post there.  Me and Pascendi would team up often times.  Good times.  Triggered a bunch of neo Catholics.  I think I posted as jadep.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"
 

Offline james03

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Re: Why I disagree with implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2021, 10:10:40 AM »
This has nothing to do with baptism, but about Faith in Jesus Christ and the desire to put in Palegian beliefs.

Here's how the dogmatic Athanasian Creed ends:

Quote
This is the catholic faith.

One cannot be saved without believing this firmly and faithfully.

"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"
 

Offline ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez

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Re: Why I disagree with implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2021, 10:22:03 AM »
This has nothing to do with baptism, but about Faith in Jesus Christ and the desire to put in Palegian beliefs.

Here's how the dogmatic Athanasian Creed ends:

Quote
This is the catholic faith.

One cannot be saved without believing this firmly and faithfully.

A heretic can't receive the crown of martyrdom even if he dies for a Catholic dogma--which he holds not because he is Catholic but because his heretic sect hasn't yet rejected it.  Given this, I don't see why we would think that a heretic receives implicit baptism.

St. Augustine even goes as far as to say that schismatic "martyrs" are not saved:

https://catholiccandle.neocities.org/faith/murdered-heretics-not-martyrs.html
 

Offline james03

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Re: Why I disagree with implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2021, 10:30:04 AM »
If "implicit" baptism saves anyone, it would be non-baptised Prots who believe in everything in the Athanasian Creed, but out of ignorance, don't get baptized.  That's the only possibility where a desire to follow Christ in all things is implied.

There is nothing implied in the moslem, jewish, or hindus that they desire baptism.  And this doesn't even address the hippo in the bathtub people pretend not to see which is FAITH.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"
 
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Offline Mattchew83

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Re: Why I disagree with implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2021, 01:48:11 PM »
If "implicit" baptism saves anyone, it would be non-baptised Prots who believe in everything in the Athanasian Creed, but out of ignorance, don't get baptized.  That's the only possibility where a desire to follow Christ in all things is implied.

There is nothing implied in the moslem, jewish, or hindus that they desire baptism.  And this doesn't even address the hippo in the bathtub people pretend not to see which is FAITH.

protestants certainly do not have any chance for salvation. There is no baptism of desire for them. Not a single one.
 
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Offline Kathleen

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Re: Why I disagree with implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2021, 01:09:00 AM »
>> Me and Pascendi would team up often times.  Good times.  Triggered a bunch of neo Catholics.  I think I posted as jadep.

I think I recognize jadep. Definitely recognize Pascendi, he was extremely solid.

I largely lurked. Used KG when I posted.
 

Offline MaximGun

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Re: Why I disagree with implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2021, 02:18:58 AM »
.

If I am right about there being no such thing as implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics...then the SSPX and most Sedevacantists are heretics.

Where would a Catholic go to Mass then and get his 10 children confirmed?
 

Offline Mattchew83

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Re: Why I disagree with implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2021, 10:46:15 AM »
.

If I am right about there being no such thing as implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics...then the SSPX and most Sedevacantists are heretics.

Where would a Catholic go to Mass then and get his 10 children confirmed?

First of all, according to Marian Apparitions and some canonized people, this was all supposed to happen. Second of all, I'm not sure where to go myself. I have read a theory (keep in mind its just a theory) that a heretic can administer the sacraments to a true Catholic who is in need of them. But I am not sure if this is true.
 

Offline ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez

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Re: Why I disagree with implicit Baptism of Desire for Non-Catholics
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2021, 11:27:34 AM »
I have read a theory (keep in mind its just a theory) that a heretic can administer the sacraments to a true Catholic who is in need of them. But I am not sure if this is true.

It depends on whether that heretic is a validly ordained priest.  If he's not validly ordained, then his faith is irrelevant.  If he is validly ordained, as long as he uses correct form, matter, and intention, then the Sacrament takes place.

There are two exceptions.  Anyone can baptize, even the unbaptized.  And the ministers of marriage are the spouses, not the priest.  But the other five Sacraments require a priest.