Theory about The Crisis and the chaos

[Gerard]

When an opportune moment comes along, I will. 

And when I say, "I don't believe in Fatima."  What is he going to reply?  Is he going to say I'm obligated to believe in it?   Is he going to say I can't have a reason or reasons to disbelieve it?

You mean to tell me that after all this time, what has it been, over a year or so that you have been calling Fatima demonic that you have not talked to a priest about it?  No opportune moment in the past year or so?

If and when you talk to a priest about it you should at least be honest with him.  If all you say to the priest is "I don't believe in Fatima" then that is not being honest.  Obviously if that is all you say to the priest he will tell you that you don't have an obligation to believe in Fatima.  If you are going to be truthful with the priest then you need to tell him everything that you have posted in here about Fatima over the past year or so.  You need to tell him that you believe that Fatima is false, that you believe Sister Lucy was a liar, that you believe the miracle of the sun in 1917 was from the devil, that you believe Our Lady of Fatima is from the devil, that you believe all the Popes and the Church have been duped by the Fatima story for just about a century, that you believe the request of Our Lady of Fatima to consecrate Russia undermines the papacy and that you have been posting all of the above in an online Catholic forum for a year or so.  Be a man Gerard, tell your whole story to a priest.  I mean if you have the guts to.  Let us know what your priest has to say about it.

I'd suggest that your few cohorts that have posted on this page do the same.

For one, most of the priests that I'm friends with on the conversational/theological level have been in Rome studying for the past few years. When they come home, and want to visit and have lunch, I can bring it up to them.  Second, most of my regular conversations with priests are confined to the confessional and frankly, I'm not interested in getting anything done other than my confession, absolution and penance. 

Third, I'm not interested in potentially starting an argument out of the blue with a priest after mass since I would anticipate the possibility of a gut reaction of , "NOOOOOO!!!!" as opposed to thoughtful evaluations.  Also, it's not fair to the priest for one thing.  I prefer to thank the priest for mass when I do address them. 

When I first came to the conclusions about Fatima that I hold, I went right to the Remnant as the "go to-guys"  and anticipated that Ferrara or Michael Matt would show me the "ah ha!" element that I missed.  And that would be the end of it.

Instead, they wouldn't go near it and banned me from their site. But you know, they have a lot of monetary considerations to address with their devotion to Fatima, books, articles, conferences, pilgrimages etc.  Remove all of that and the urgency of a consecration and everyone suddenly only has to worry daily about the salvation of their souls over the course of their lives and not worry about "annihilation" like many of us did in the 1980s over nukes. 

With that said, If anyone knows a priest that would like to correspond with me on the matter or here on the forum, I'm open to it. 

[mikemac]

When an opportune moment comes along, I will. 

And when I say, "I don't believe in Fatima."  What is he going to reply?  Is he going to say I'm obligated to believe in it?   Is he going to say I can't have a reason or reasons to disbelieve it?

You mean to tell me that after all this time, what has it been, over a year or so that you have been calling Fatima demonic that you have not talked to a priest about it?  No opportune moment in the past year or so?

If and when you talk to a priest about it you should at least be honest with him.  If all you say to the priest is "I don't believe in Fatima" then that is not being honest.  Obviously if that is all you say to the priest he will tell you that you don't have an obligation to believe in Fatima.  If you are going to be truthful with the priest then you need to tell him everything that you have posted in here about Fatima over the past year or so.  You need to tell him that you believe that Fatima is false, that you believe Sister Lucy was a liar, that you believe the miracle of the sun in 1917 was from the devil, that you believe Our Lady of Fatima is from the devil, that you believe all the Popes and the Church have been duped by the Fatima story for just about a century, that you believe the request of Our Lady of Fatima to consecrate Russia undermines the papacy and that you have been posting all of the above in an online Catholic forum for a year or so.  Be a man Gerard, tell your whole story to a priest.  I mean if you have the guts to.  Let us know what your priest has to say about it.

I'd suggest that your few cohorts that have posted on this page do the same.

For one, most of the priests that I'm friends with on the conversational/theological level have been in Rome studying for the past few years. When they come home, and want to visit and have lunch, I can bring it up to them.  Second, most of my regular conversations with priests are confined to the confessional and frankly, I'm not interested in getting anything done other than my confession, absolution and penance. 

Third, I'm not interested in potentially starting an argument out of the blue with a priest after mass since I would anticipate the possibility of a gut reaction of , "NOOOOOO!!!!" as opposed to thoughtful evaluations.  Also, it's not fair to the priest for one thing.  I prefer to thank the priest for mass when I do address them. 

When I first came to the conclusions about Fatima that I hold, I went right to the Remnant as the "go to-guys"  and anticipated that Ferrara or Michael Matt would show me the "ah ha!" element that I missed.  And that would be the end of it.

Instead, they wouldn't go near it and banned me from their site. But you know, they have a lot of monetary considerations to address with their devotion to Fatima, books, articles, conferences, pilgrimages etc.  Remove all of that and the urgency of a consecration and everyone suddenly only has to worry daily about the salvation of their souls over the course of their lives and not worry about "annihilation" like many of us did in the 1980s over nukes. 

With that said, If anyone knows a priest that would like to correspond with me on the matter or here on the forum, I'm open to it.

Yeah it would be nice if a priest (not a sede priest) would confront you here in a public forum about what you think about Fatima, but I doubt that would happen in public.  Maybe though.  I would be interested in hearing what the priest has to say about your "thoughtful evaluations" when you get a chance to talk to one.

[Gerard]

It would also have been nice if Matt and Ferrara would have directly addressed my concerns.  Their silence tells me they don't have any substantive rebuttals. 

[mikemac]

It would also have been nice if Matt and Ferrara would have directly addressed my concerns.  Their silence tells me they don't have any substantive rebuttals.

Well I imagine with your questions Matt and Ferrara were thinking that you were a Protestant or some form of Catholic hater that was just trying to make trouble for them.

[Optatus]

Fatima has some problems. Portugal being the big one.

Would you be able to explain?

[Innocent Smith]

Have no doubt that the Fatima apparitions were real and true. Also have no doubt that the Devils is always busy after every true apparition trying to make the real apparitions appear false and to lead people astray. This has been the case of after every approved apparition even to the point of following the approved ones with false ones. Seems some need to read up on apparitions in general. Proof texting is not how you resolve this issue.

You may want to read up on what St. John of the Cross has to say about apparitions. If they are actually happening it's most likely the Devil in the first place.

[Gerard]

It would also have been nice if Matt and Ferrara would have directly addressed my concerns.  Their silence tells me they don't have any substantive rebuttals.

Well I imagine with your questions Matt and Ferrara were thinking that you were a Protestant or some form of Catholic hater that was just trying to make trouble for them.

I dunno about that.  The whole point of my position is commensurate with defending the institution of the papacy. 

[St.Justin]

Have no doubt that the Fatima apparitions were real and true. Also have no doubt that the Devils is always busy after every true apparition trying to make the real apparitions appear false and to lead people astray. This has been the case of after every approved apparition even to the point of following the approved ones with false ones. Seems some need to read up on apparitions in general. Proof texting is not how you resolve this issue.

You may want to read up on what St. John of the Cross has to say about apparitions. If they are actually happening it's most likely the Devil in the first place.

I have never read very much o St John of the Cross. I do know that the devil can't perform Supernatural Miracles. So if the Church declares something to be Supernatural then it ain't demonic.

[Gerard]

Have no doubt that the Fatima apparitions were real and true. Also have no doubt that the Devils is always busy after every true apparition trying to make the real apparitions appear false and to lead people astray. This has been the case of after every approved apparition even to the point of following the approved ones with false ones. Seems some need to read up on apparitions in general. Proof texting is not how you resolve this issue.

You may want to read up on what St. John of the Cross has to say about apparitions. If they are actually happening it's most likely the Devil in the first place.

I have never read very much o St John of the Cross. I do know that the devil can't perform Supernatural Miracles. So if the Church declares something to be Supernatural then it ain't demonic.

The Blessed Mother can't perform supernatural miracles either.   Nobody but God can do the Supernatural.  All other creatures that do anything "miraculous" are performing preternatural acts. 

The Church doesn't have an infallible protection on declaring whether acts are supernatural or not.  And they can't bind any Catholic to believing an optional apparition. 

[St.Justin]

Have no doubt that the Fatima apparitions were real and true. Also have no doubt that the Devils is always busy after every true apparition trying to make the real apparitions appear false and to lead people astray. This has been the case of after every approved apparition even to the point of following the approved ones with false ones. Seems some need to read up on apparitions in general. Proof texting is not how you resolve this issue.

You may want to read up on what St. John of the Cross has to say about apparitions. If they are actually happening it's most likely the Devil in the first place.

I have never read very much o St John of the Cross. I do know that the devil can't perform Supernatural Miracles. So if the Church declares something to be Supernatural then it ain't demonic.

The Blessed Mother can't perform supernatural miracles either.   Nobody but God can do the Supernatural.  All other creatures that do anything "miraculous" are performing preternatural acts. 

The Church doesn't have an infallible protection on declaring whether acts are supernatural or not.  And they can't bind any Catholic to believing an optional apparition.

No one has claimed she could, as with all miracles, they are by God through the entity He chooses to work through. He certainly does not work through the devil.
Yes Apparitions are not binding and that is a fact. I would prefer to believe what the Church has to say about whether something is Supernatural or not then random people on forums giving their opinions as error seems to favor random posters..

[mikemac]

Have no doubt that the Fatima apparitions were real and true. Also have no doubt that the Devils is always busy after every true apparition trying to make the real apparitions appear false and to lead people astray. This has been the case of after every approved apparition even to the point of following the approved ones with false ones. Seems some need to read up on apparitions in general. Proof texting is not how you resolve this issue.

You may want to read up on what St. John of the Cross has to say about apparitions. If they are actually happening it's most likely the Devil in the first place.

I have never read very much o St John of the Cross. I do know that the devil can't perform Supernatural Miracles. So if the Church declares something to be Supernatural then it ain't demonic.

The Blessed Mother can't perform supernatural miracles either.   Nobody but God can do the Supernatural.  All other creatures that do anything "miraculous" are performing preternatural acts. 

The Church doesn't have an infallible protection on declaring whether acts are supernatural or not.  And they can't bind any Catholic to believing an optional apparition.

Well the Church must believe that the Blessed Mother and saints can perform supernatural miracles threw God, otherwise the Church would not have approved Guadalupe, Lourdes, Fatima and such.  Our Lady of the Pillar is an approved bilocation of the Blessed Mother to St. James in 40 AD when she was still alive.  Although not approved most of us have heard of the bilocations of María de Ágreda, Padre Pio and others.  Even though St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Ávila both wrote against looking for personal apparitions they are both recognized as mystics, as well as both of them being named as Doctors of the Church.  You are right, as Catholics we are not obligated to believe in apparitions, even the ones that are approved by the Church.

Gerard I love reading stories like María de Ágreda bilocating from Spain to the Jumano Indians of New Mexico and Texas in the 17th century.  Whether legends like these are true or not they were obviously passed down to us by the Jumano Indians.  They are just nice Catholic legends.  Nobody is saying that Catholics have to believe these stories.  They are just nice stories to be shared.  We should be able to have discussions about these traditional Catholic legends without them being attacked.  That's all we are asking.  I'm sure there are a lot of members of this forum that like to read about these traditional Catholic stories.  It certainly is not going to destroy anyone's Faith by reading them.

[Gerard]

Well the Church must believe that the Blessed Mother and saints can perform supernatural miracles threw God, otherwise the Church would not have approved Guadalupe, Lourdes, Fatima and such.  Our Lady of the Pillar is an approved bilocation of the Blessed Mother to St. James in 40 AD when she was still alive.  Although not approved most of us have heard of the bilocations of María de Ágreda, Padre Pio and others.  Even though St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Ávila both wrote against looking for personal apparitions they are both recognized as mystics, as well as both of them being named as Doctors of the Church.  You are right, as Catholics we are not obligated to believe in apparitions, even the ones that are approved by the Church.

Gerard I love reading stories like María de Ágreda bilocating from Spain to the Jumano Indians of New Mexico and Texas in the 17th century.  Whether legends like these are true or not they were obviously passed down to us by the Jumano Indians.  They are just nice Catholic legends.  Nobody is saying that Catholics have to believe these stories.  They are just nice stories to be shared.  We should be able to have discussions about these traditional Catholic legends without them being attacked.  That's all we are asking.  I'm sure there are a lot of members of this forum that like to read about these traditional Catholic stories.  It certainly is not going to destroy anyone's Faith by reading them.

I appreciate your comments mikemac, I don't have a problem with people personally believing stories, legends and tales provided they are orthodox and don't contradict, established authoritative teaching. (Charismatics have been known to come up with some ludicrous "revelations.") 

But I do run into a problem where the optional beliefs start to dictate the who, what, where and why of how the Pope is to utilize the Keys of the Church. 

Apparitions fall into a particular category in the Church, I have no reason to disbelieve in the apparition of Our Lady of Lourdes.  I would put it down to cynicism but not heresy if someone didn't believe it, especially if they didn't have a doctrinal reason for their disbelief. 

But over the last few years, you have advocates of Fatima pushing the boundaries of orthodoxy in their enthusiasm and wishes for political stability and world peace and the avoidance of temporal calamities.  Even when Fr. Gruner was alive the push to have Fatima categorized as something more than an apparition was a dangerous path to go down.  One that puts the foundational beliefs of the Church at stake.   

The faith comes first above any and all phenomena, miracles, conversion stories and claims of any party or event.  It has to come first or nothing means anything. 

The Blessed Mother loses nothing if Fatima is demonstrated to be false.  There should be no fear at all if a contradiction in Fatima is found even at a late date that invalidates it doctrinally. 

[Traditionallyruralmom]

Stepping in, under the Fatima rabbit trail brawl......

The priest who gave this sermon is very edifying.  I listen to him often.  That being said, he had a sermon years ago on the now defunct Audio Sancto where he ripped JRR Tollken and his books to shreds, saying that no traditional Catholic, ever, anywhere had any business reading those wicked novels...ect ect ect.  That sermon was taken down before I even had a chance to chat with my husband about it.  My point is, every good priest may have opinions that are not necessarily true, but can package them in a way that make us think that every thing that comes out of their mouths is Gospel truth. 

Im not saying that is how the OP viewed this sermon.  But I will say again, in my experience, this priest has said outrageous things before, as well as many amazing, edifying and very helpful things.   

[Traditionallyruralmom]

oh, and regarding the Fatima rabbit trail...I honestly never knew there were trads who did not take Fatima seriously, or thought it was false.  This is news to me in my 13 years of Traditional Catholic life.

[Gardener]

Stepping in, under the Fatima rabbit trail brawl......

The priest who gave this sermon is very edifying.  I listen to him often.  That being said, he had a sermon years ago on the now defunct Audio Sancto where he ripped JRR Tollken and his books to shreds, saying that no traditional Catholic, ever, anywhere had any business reading those wicked novels...ect ect ect.  That sermon was taken down before I even had a chance to chat with my husband about it.  My point is, every good priest may have opinions that are not necessarily true, but can package them in a way that make us think that every thing that comes out of their mouths is Gospel truth. 

Im not saying that is how the OP viewed this sermon.  But I will say again, in my experience, this priest has said outrageous things before, as well as many amazing, edifying and very helpful things.   

The sermon you referenced regarding Tolkien was trash. It caused a big brouhaha at OLMC in Littleton. Fr. Jackson had so many people asking him about it that he wrote a 2 (or 3?) part series on it. He listened to the sermon and realized the priest had mistaken certain terms (such as myth) and misunderstand their usage, and also made a number of philosophical errors. In short, it was reactionary and not based in objective usage of vocabulary, nor the reality of Tolkien's work.