Pentagon Reportedly Found ‘Off-World Vehicles Not Made on This Earth’

[Sojourn]

Ok, I respect that, regarding your question on technology and magic, high tech always *seems* unexplainable.

I think you do not understand the scope of the "belief" and "attribution" problems in contemporary society.  While the medieval world mostly had ignorance clouding their knowledge, the 21st century world operates on an entirely different axis.

Yea I think you missed the point here. I wasn't attacking medieval epistemology, my point was any high technology appears magical. This was in response to a poster's question on why if particular tech appears magical it cant simply be preternatural. We can't begin what tech in the next thousand of ten thousand years looks like.

And for my part, I was not attacking medieval epistemology at all, so we seem to be talking past each other.  I was merely pointing out the parallels between similar dynamics of awe and readiness to believe and even to anticipate/hope for, as if technology is indeed an independent "force" with an operative will and a wished-for "sovereignty" over man, replacing God.

The extent of one's "beliefs" can easily be limited by knowledge and by the will to know.  The medieval serf was not responsible for his ignorance in a largely illiterate society, but the educated people of the 21st century lack the will to admit of any sphere they cannot know to the point of control. They are motivated by entirely different convictions. 

This part is just a difference of opinion, but I highly doubt we'll being seeing the fruits of any technological fantasies in one thousand years, let alone ten.  With the way the world is going, and the chastisements that are increasing in kind, number, and pace, I cannot foresee the youngest user of this forum seeing the beginning of the 22nd century.

We appear to be nearing some sort of significant event but will it be a societal apocalypse? Noam Chomsky in his Necessary Illusions book outlines how the US government through satellite data and intelligence knew without a doubt that the Soviets were not equipped to withstand our attack on them nor could their attack penetrate our defenses. In other words, there was no red scare yet threats of soviet invasion and nuclear war were promoted in the media apparatus and popular culture. Fostering fear and giving a sense of impending chaos are means of control when all the data indicates that we are being guided along a particular trajectory. As an example we are approaching the 2.0. Anniversary of a significant event that is quite clearly not what the official narrative about is is true. I'm beginning to wonder if this "break away civilization" some ufologist scholars refer to is identical to what some refer to as the k.abal - I don't think the government was responsible for the apparent suicide of a certain inmate nor do I believe the anniversary had it's cause in a government faction. We're dealing with a force that is over and above the apparent political apparatus and they want you to feel scared and hopeless but I have a feeling this order we live in will last for a very long time. But god knows best

[awkwardcustomer]

We appear to be nearing some sort of significant event .....

We are.  The New World Order, which is the reign of the Antichrist, is almost upon us.

And some of us might survive to witness the Second Coming.

[abc123]

Has anybody mentioned Messengers of Deception by Jacques Vallee? If not I would recommend it. The author does not come from a religious perspective but lays out the case that these phenomena are NOT carbon based life forms from another planet.

[TradGranny]

Has anybody mentioned Messengers of Deception by Jacques Vallee? If not I would recommend it. The author does not come from a religious perspective but lays out the case that these phenomena are NOT carbon based life forms from another planet.

Thank you for mentioning this book. I had never heard of this, so I went to Amazon and found this:

Jacques VALLEE holds a master's degree in astrophysics from France and a PhD in computer science from Northwestern University, where he served as an associate of Dr. J. Allen Hynek. He is the author of several books about high technology and unidentified phenomena, a subject that first attracted his attention as an astronomer in Paris. While analyzing observations from many parts of the world, Jacques became intrigued by the similarities in patterns between moderrn sightings and historical reports of encounters with flying objects and their occupants in every culture.

After a career as an information scientist with Stanford Research Institute and the Institute for the Future, where he served as a principal investigator for the groupware project on the Arpanet, the prototype of the Internet, Jacques Vallée co-founded a venture capital firm in Silicon Valley. He lives in San Francisco.

from the reviews:
Jacques Vallee puts forth the theory that UFOs are, in fact, a tool of social and political control. Vallee believes that some hidden group or government is using deceptive methods and staging UFO type events to steer the public toward a fabricated, cult-like belief system.

Vallee cautiously sketches out his belief that some agency with enormous power of various kinds is and has been "staging" thousands of technologically complex, essentially 'fake' UFO sightings around the world with the pointed intention of manipulating and guiding civilization, and man himself, in a very specific direction.

The apparent goal of this agency is to encourage mankind, via a belief in the impending arrival from the heavens of the benevolent 'space brothers,' to become anti-scientific, irrational, infantile, dependent, and endlessly hopeful that the essential problems of man---including his mortality---can be permanently overcome through the multi-prismed salvation the [false] "space brothers" offer.

Other goals include 'the reversal of the scale of values,' "leading to a new understanding of social good, the abolition of borders, and the death of nationalism," 'goals' which are certainly becoming the reality in today's America and throughout the West.


Vallee's thesis focuses on the 'Manipulators,' which is Vallee's term for the (most likely human) agency which understands the genuine UFO phenomena enough to exploit it, duplicate its effects, and use those effects to control and corral mankind (initially through UFO cults and occult groups, but also by infiltrating civilian UFO investigatory organizations) by methodically reducing it to an irrational, dependent mob without recourse to country or nationality, and, by extension, without recourse to family, community, financial solvency, or spirit of independence.

The 'Manipulators' use "psychotronic" weapons, which harness electromagnetic energy that acts on the subconscious mind, creating hallucinations of aerial and landed 'flying saucers,' visitors from other planets, 'alien abduction,' and amnesia. Some of these weapons are loaded onto flying machines shaped like classic 'flying saucers,' while other such "psychotronic" devices actually create the illusion of the 'flying saucer' itself.

Again: who--or what--has the sort of scientific, technological, financial, and organizational resources required to pull off such a decades-long stratagem?

Vallee offers two hypothetical scenarios. In the first, a secret cabal composed of military personnel of various Western nations are attempting to convince the masses that an invasion from space may be imminent; their goal is to unify the nations of the earth against a common enemy and thus prevent further catastrophic wars.

The second hypothesis Vallee offers is a sketchy version of the demonological argument that has been put forth by John Keel, among others, but also involves human practitioners who have discovered a genuine form of occultism, and who are using 'magic' to manipulate both 'reality' and mankind.

[Sojourn]

Has anybody mentioned Messengers of Deception by Jacques Vallee? If not I would recommend it. The author does not come from a religious perspective but lays out the case that these phenomena are NOT carbon based life forms from another planet.

It's a dated work and many people of a religious persuasion like this work because it helps them avoid the cognitive dissonance of dealing with the existence non terrestrial rational life. But if what the original article of the New York Times mentioned in this thread is true, we're dealing with actual craft.

[Sojourn]

We appear to be nearing some sort of significant event .....

We are.  The New World Order, which is the reign of the Antichrist, is almost upon us.

And some of us might survive to witness the Second Coming.

I disagree with you friend, we have a long way to go. Let's not be like the Jews In 70ad who believed the temple could not be destroyed because Yahweh would protect it.

[abc123]

Has anybody mentioned Messengers of Deception by Jacques Vallee? If not I would recommend it. The author does not come from a religious perspective but lays out the case that these phenomena are NOT carbon based life forms from another planet.

It's a dated work and many people of a religious persuasion like this work because it helps them avoid the cognitive dissonance of dealing with the existence non terrestrial rational life. But if what the original article of the New York Times mentioned in this thread is true, we're dealing with actual craft.

Have you read it? The book addresses "actual craft."

[Sojourn]

Has anybody mentioned Messengers of Deception by Jacques Vallee? If not I would recommend it. The author does not come from a religious perspective but lays out the case that these phenomena are NOT carbon based life forms from another planet.

It's a dated work and many people of a religious persuasion like this work because it helps them avoid the cognitive dissonance of dealing with the existence non terrestrial rational life. But if what the original article of the New York Times mentioned in this thread is true, we're dealing with actual craft.

Have you read it? The book addresses "actual craft."

I have not read it for the reason mentioned above but I would be interested in your take on "craft" and so called "aliens" according to what you read

[TradGranny]

It's a dated work and many people of a religious persuasion like this work because it helps them avoid the cognitive dissonance of dealing with the existence non terrestrial rational life. But if what the original article of the New York Times mentioned in this thread is true, we're dealing with actual craft.

Logic tells us that "actual craft" does not translate into other life forms.

If such "actual craft" exist they may be earth-based technology.

If such "actual craft" exist they may be demons working the "lies and wonders" about which we are warned in the Holy Bible.

Why are you wedded to the notion of little green men?

Do you agree with the Vatican astronomer who says we may have to rethink Catholic theology if such little green men exist?

[TradGranny]

I found this on a very interesting thread over at Cath Info

Vatican astronomer: We will have to re-evaluate our Faith after alien revelation

Once "religious content" originating from outside the earth "has been verified" we will have to conduct "a re-reading [of the Gospel] inclusive of the new data..."
according to
– Vatican Astronomer, Theologian and Full Professor of Fundamental Theology at the Pontificia Università della Santa Croce in Rome [Connected With Opus Dei], Father Giuseppe Tanzella-Nitti

Giuseppe Tanzella-Nitti wrote about Christianity's relation to the concept of alien extra-terrestrial life from outer space, "Extraterrestrial life," Interdisciplinary Encyclopedia of Religion and Science, 2008 AD.

"Thomas Paine (1737-1809), The Age of Reason (1793), a text that for the first time directly proposed a radical incompatibility between the Christian religion and the existence of intelligent extraterrestrial life. According to Paine, the discovery of non-terrestrial life would inevitably lead to a repudiation of religion:

'Are we to suppose that every world in the boundless creation had an Eve, an apple, a serpent and a redeemer? In this case, the person who is irreverently called the Son of God, and sometimes God himself, would have nothing else to do than to travel from world to world, in an endless succession of death, with scarcely a momentary interval of life' (The Age of Reason, New York 1961, p. 283)..."

"I believe that the theme of possible intelligent life of extraterrestrial origin, i.e., intelligent life outside the experience of unity of the human family as presented by the entire biblical message, represents one of the major speculative efforts facing Christian theology...

what the Judeo-Christian tradition professes about the existence of angels. This tradition shows that the meaning of creation is not completely based on the relationship between man and God, "but remains open to other creatures," which, although likewise dependent on God, have a history and an economy of salvation distinct from that of humankind..."

Actually, "the relationship between Christianity and the other religions" is not "The only available analogy for our topic" but, as noted above, the best analogy is the relationship between Christianity and the other sentient beings aka demons some of whom pretend to be extra-terrestrial aliens much in the same way that, "Satan disguises himself as an angel of light" (2 Corinthians 11:14).


"...a believer who is respectful of the requirements of scientific reasoning would not be obliged to renounce his own faith in God simply on the basis of the reception of new, unexpected information of a religious character from extraterrestrial civilizations. In the first place, human reason itself would suggest the need to submit this new "religious content" coming from outside the Earth to an analysis of reasonableness and credibility (analogous to what we are accustomed to do when any religious content is proposed to us, on Earth); once the trustworthiness of the information has been verified, the believer should try to reconcile such new information with the truth that he or she already knows and believes on the basis of the revelation of the One and Triune God, conducting a re-reading inclusive of the new data, similar to that which would be applied in an ordinary interreligious dialogue.

http://www.truefreethinker.com/articles/giuseppe-tanzella-nitti-comments-christianity-and-%E2%80%9Cextraterrestrial-life%E2%80%9D

[Sojourn]

It's a dated work and many people of a religious persuasion like this work because it helps them avoid the cognitive dissonance of dealing with the existence non terrestrial rational life. But if what the original article of the New York Times mentioned in this thread is true, we're dealing with actual craft.

Logic tells us that "actual craft" does not translate into other life forms.

Does a car presuppose existence of a driver?

If such "actual craft" exist they may be earth-based technology.

This phenomenon was described as "real" and beyond explanation, eg foriegn tech, in 1947. There are reports of reverse engineering programs being successful but they presuppose alien craft not of this world.

If such "actual craft" exist they may be demons working the "lies and wonders" about which we are warned in the Holy Bible.

This is not a tenable position, its like saying demons can build ships, planes, and automobiles.

Why are you wedded to the notion of little green men?

Who said they're green? I just go by the data

Do you agree with the Vatican astronomer who says we may have to rethink Catholic theology if such little green men exist?

With what spirit do you ask me such a question? Certain aspects of fallible doctrinal speculation will have to be rethought, I mean look how many in this forum find something incompatible with the idea of alien life. I think such a disclosure will have an even greater impact than the realization that the earth spins around the sun.

But God knows best.

[Miriam_M]

Certain aspects of fallible doctrinal speculation will have to be rethought

Only if so called alien creatures -- beings with independent wills -- become known to the existing world, and not until then.  And I'm not sure what you mean by "fallible doctrinal speculation."  You mean the "speculation" that mankind is the highest order of natural species created by God?  Is that "fallible" to you?

So, fast forward for a sec to all of the apparitions of Our Lady, those which took place long after ancient times, including in the 20th century.  Odd that when she utters various prophesies -- which by the way do not contradict the ancient Book of Revelation -- she never mentions additional "beings" or "creatures" outside of mankind, in need of God's mercy, subject to God's dominion. Although her utterances refer to life on Planet Earth, it is difficult to imagine that cataclysmic, cosmological events would not affect supposed creatures existing on other planets in some galaxy near enough to supposedly have aroused suspicion.

A protected layer of life -- rescued from cosmological events probably affecting more than just Planet Earth -- would be something logically to be mentioned, like, "Only mankind will be affected by these events.  God's beloved creatures in other spheres will be untouched." 


Sojourn, our God is a God Who wants to reveal Himself and wants to share.  It is in His very nature and being to be simple.  That is the first ontological statement, by the way, that can be made about God:  That He is simple.  Doesn't come from me; comes from binding dogma of the Catholic Church. Only a devious, secretive God would shelter mankind from knowledge of other creatures within the umbrella of His love (not good angels, not fallen angels, not animal life which He has not obstructed from our view). 

[Sojourn]

Certain aspects of fallible doctrinal speculation will have to be rethought

Only if so called alien creatures -- beings with independent wills -- become known to the existing world, and not until then.  And I'm not sure what you mean by "fallible doctrinal speculation."  You mean the "speculation" that mankind is the highest order of natural species created by God?  Is that "fallible" to you?

So, fast forward for a sec to all of the apparitions of Our Lady, those which took place long after ancient times, including in the 20th century.  Odd that when she utters various prophesies -- which by the way do not contradict the ancient Book of Revelation -- she never mentions additional "beings" or "creatures" outside of mankind, in need of God's mercy, subject to God's dominion. Although her utterances refer to life on Planet Earth, it is difficult to imagine that cataclysmic, cosmological events would not affect supposed creatures existing on other planets in some galaxy near enough to supposedly have aroused suspicion.

A protected layer of life -- rescued from cosmological events probably affecting more than just Planet Earth -- would be something logically to be mentioned, like, "Only mankind will be affected by these events.  God's beloved creatures in other spheres will be untouched." 


Sojourn, our God is a God Who wants to reveal Himself and wants to share.  It is in His very nature and being to be simple.  That is the first ontological statement, by the way, that can be made about God:  That He is simple.  Doesn't come from me; comes from binding dogma of the Catholic Church. Only a devious, secretive God would shelter mankind from knowledge of other creatures within the umbrella of His love (not good angels, not fallen angels, not animal life which He has not obstructed from our view).

I said "fallible" to distinguish from dogmatic. Certain perceptions will have to change alongside the same line of realizing Christ's return is not immanent or that the earth revolves around the sun. Your arguments of humans being highest creation to divine simply to try to exclude other life forms is stretch. Relative to earth humans are the highest creation, and divine simplicity does not imply God divulges everything to us - not all that is revealed is self evident, some things are hidden intentionally to be found by the adept - our history is a history of shifting paradigms. You accept that the earth spins and revolves around the sun, that there are distant solar systems, why didn't God reveal these things? He is simple

[awkwardcustomer]

We appear to be nearing some sort of significant event .....

We are.  The New World Order, which is the reign of the Antichrist, is almost upon us.

And some of us might survive to witness the Second Coming.

I disagree with you friend, we have a long way to go. Let's not be like the Jews In 70ad who believed the temple could not be destroyed because Yahweh would protect it.

And let's not be like those who scoffed at Noah.

Perhaps the Antichrist will come as an alien, not like ET or the alien from the film, but as a wise and powerful 'ambassador' from an advanced civilisation on another planet come to save us from ourselves. 

That's it.

[Sojourn]

We appear to be nearing some sort of significant event .....

We are.  The New World Order, which is the reign of the Antichrist, is almost upon us.

And some of us might survive to witness the Second Coming.

I disagree with you friend, we have a long way to go. Let's not be like the Jews In 70ad who believed the temple could not be destroyed because Yahweh would protect it.

And let's not be like those who scoffed at Noah.

Perhaps the Antichrist will come as an alien, not like ET or the alien from the film, but as a wise and powerful 'ambassador' from an advanced civilisation on another planet come to save us from ourselves. 

That's it.

It could also be your personal encounters were not demonic but extraterrestrial - and which of those is more terrifying or disturbing? I'd wager the ET proposition