Fatima's Portugal Problem

Started by james03, May 29, 2021, 10:43:03 AM

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GiftOfGod

Quote from: james03 on October 19, 2021, 02:17:47 PM
I really resist throwing in with the Fake Lucy crowd, but everytime I check, darn it's scary.




I don't know anything about this Fake Sister Lucy thing and refuse to go down that rabbit hole but all I will say is this:

That is not the same woman.
Quote from: Maximilian on December 30, 2021, 11:15:48 AM
Quote from: Goldfinch on December 30, 2021, 10:36:10 AM
Quote from: Innocent Smith on December 30, 2021, 10:25:55 AM
If attending Mass, the ordinary form as celebrated everyday around the world be sinful, then the Church no longer exists. Period.
Rather, if the NOM were the lex credendi of the Church, then the Church would no longer exist. However, the true mass and the true sacraments still exist and will hold the candle of faith until Our Lord steps in to restore His Bride to her glory.
We could compare ourselves to the Catholics in England at the time of the Reformation. Was it sinful for them to attend Cranmer's service?
We have to remind ourselves that all the machinery of the "Church" continued in place. They had priests, bishops, churches, cathedrals. But all of them were using the new "Book of Common Prayer" instead of the Catholic Mass. Ordinary lay people could see with their own eyes an enormous entity that called itself the "Church," but did the true Church still exist in that situation? Meanwhile, in small hiding places in certain homes were a handful of true priests offering the true Mass at the risk of imprisonment, torture and death.


Innocent Smith

Quote from: GiftOfGod on October 19, 2021, 05:39:55 PM
Quote from: james03 on October 19, 2021, 02:17:47 PM
I really resist throwing in with the Fake Lucy crowd, but everytime I check, darn it's scary.




I don't know anything about this Fake Sister Lucy thing and refuse to go down that rabbit hole but all I will say is this:

That is not the same woman.

You are absolutely correct.  Just like I am not the same person I was 50, 25, or even 10 years ago.

There is nothing in that face that age and 50 or 60 additional pounds cannot explain. And besides, what do you know about the veracity of the images. The image on the left looks like an attempt at art in the portrait and is obviously touched up.

The 2 Lucy Crackpots have to the looniest bunch of all when it comes to Fatima.
I am going to hold a pistol to the head of the modern man. But I shall not use it to kill him, only to bring him to life.

GiftOfGod

Quote from: Innocent Smith on October 19, 2021, 05:47:08 PM
Quote from: GiftOfGod on October 19, 2021, 05:39:55 PM
Quote from: james03 on October 19, 2021, 02:17:47 PM
I really resist throwing in with the Fake Lucy crowd, but everytime I check, darn it's scary.




I don't know anything about this Fake Sister Lucy thing and refuse to go down that rabbit hole but all I will say is this:

That is not the same woman.

You are absolutely correct.  Just like I am not the same person I was 50, 25, or even 10 years ago.

There is nothing in that face that age and 50 or 60 additional pounds cannot explain. And besides, what do you know about the veracity of the images. The image on the left looks like an attempt at art in the portrait and is obviously touched up.

The 2 Lucy Crackpots have to the looniest bunch of all when it comes to Fatima.
Weight and aging doesn't alter nose cartilage. It also doesn't give you an underbite. Those things are immutable.
Quote from: Maximilian on December 30, 2021, 11:15:48 AM
Quote from: Goldfinch on December 30, 2021, 10:36:10 AM
Quote from: Innocent Smith on December 30, 2021, 10:25:55 AM
If attending Mass, the ordinary form as celebrated everyday around the world be sinful, then the Church no longer exists. Period.
Rather, if the NOM were the lex credendi of the Church, then the Church would no longer exist. However, the true mass and the true sacraments still exist and will hold the candle of faith until Our Lord steps in to restore His Bride to her glory.
We could compare ourselves to the Catholics in England at the time of the Reformation. Was it sinful for them to attend Cranmer's service?
We have to remind ourselves that all the machinery of the "Church" continued in place. They had priests, bishops, churches, cathedrals. But all of them were using the new "Book of Common Prayer" instead of the Catholic Mass. Ordinary lay people could see with their own eyes an enormous entity that called itself the "Church," but did the true Church still exist in that situation? Meanwhile, in small hiding places in certain homes were a handful of true priests offering the true Mass at the risk of imprisonment, torture and death.


Ragnarok

QuoteWeight and aging doesn't alter nose cartilage. It also doesn't give you an underbite. Those things are immutable.

As someone whose mother's family is cursed with long noses, I can tell you personally that age definitely affects nose cartilage, especially through puberty. The same is true with the jaw.

MaximGun

Watch the video above that I posted.

It clearly is the same woman.  Consider ALL of the arguments not just the pictures and data that sells your narrative.

MaximGun

#245
Quote from: mikemac on October 19, 2021, 02:01:28 PM
She said the third secret should be revealed before 1960.   

That vision of the Pope being killed by a crowd of soldiers and wholesale slaughter of clergy.

What did that have to do with 1960?  It still has not happened in 2021.

If the Third Secret was something else and the Vatican lied then reveal it.

Even if it happens 1 or 100 years into the future, there was no need to release that strange vision in 1960.


james03

QuoteWatch the video above that I posted.

It clearly is the same woman.

I watched the video.  "Clearly" is not correct, clearly there are major differences.  And unfortunately the narrator is a rambler and didn't explain things in an organized way.

That being said, he brought up a point that is key.  She had dentures.  Considering how bad her teeth were, dentures will drastically alter her face.  I said I hate throwing in with the fake Lucy crowd so I'm satisfied with that explanation.

Also, his ending comment to explain the change in what Sr. Lucy said has been my opinion all along.  First, he doesn't go over this, any typed statement she made is worthless to me, simply because all it means is you got an old woman to sign off on a typed message.

As far as the interview, credit to the narrator, he admits that she contradicts herself.  He states that the simple explanation is sufficient.  She's an old woman with 70 years between the event and decades of pressure from the Vatican.  So she ended up switching her position.  Keep in mind, this is her opinion only.  She doesn't claim Mary told her it was done.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

james03

QuoteBut believe me, Father, God will chastise the world and this will be in a terrible manner.  The punishment from Heaven is imminent.

This is a reasonable objection to Fatima.  I only count 2, "Portugal", already discussed, and this.

I'll state the argument as this: "The punishment from heaven can only be described as a lot less severe than World War II.  All you can point to that correspond with "imminent" is Vietnam, which had basically zero impact on Europe and far less casualties for Americans than WWII, the previous punishment.".  I think that is a fair summary of the argument.

Counter to this, and my opinion, is that what WAS imminent at the time of the interview was Vatican II, and that was a catastrophe for the entire world.

Keep in mind there were two deadlines: 1960, and 2029.  1960 corresponds with Vatican II, which is obvious to me.  2029, in my opinion, corresponds with the kind of physical anhilations that JPII alluded to and also what was spoken about at Akita.

For me the evidence comes down in favor of Fatima being legit, in that these elements are authentic:
1.  Vision of hell foretells a future where the bulk of Catholics will disbelieve in it.
2.  WW II.
3.  The third secret, both the letter and the vision recorded in the notebook had to be released by 1960.
4.  Russia DID spread its errors throughout the world via direct actions (e.g. China) as confirmed by Verona, and by cultural subversion which we refer to as Cultural Marxism.
5.  2029 is the cut off date for the Russia consecration.  Admitted speculation, but reasonable, tying it in with the 100 years for the France consecration.  In any event it is the last plausible deadline in order to confirm Fatima.

As far as the vision of Pacelli, I believe it.  The tie in with Tisserant, head of the Vatican library is a key feature.  The claim that Trads cooked it up is false, as it's written in the 1972 book.  The best objection is that the Monsignor added it to sell books, basically calling him a liar.  Also, it is a very minor part of the book, so even that claim is a huge stretch.

That sums up my position.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Xavier

I agree with James that something remarkable is likely to happen in 2029. On balance, I think it will be the invasion of Rome, perhaps by Communists, or maybe by Radical Islamic Terrorists. This would fit with the actual vision of the Pope fleeing over martyred bodies and himself being killed by the enemies of the Faith. There is a certain amount of Vatican spin regarding what the Vision itself depicted - some kind of invasion of Rome, with the Pope fleeing and many being killed - something also spoken of by Pope St. Pius X - and the interpretation given by some like Kasper who claimed it referred to "past events". Pope Benedict XVI would later say "we would be mistaken to think that Fatima's prophetic mission is complete".

It also fits in with the Lord's own words at Fatima: "Make it known to My ministers, given they follow the example of the King of France in delaying the execution of My command (to consecrate Russia), like him (like the King of France) they will follow him into misfortune."What is this reference to the King of France? The command, of course, is the command to consecrate Russia.

The King of France, on the 17th of June 1689, was given a command by the Sacred Heart of Jesus to have France consecrated to the Sacred Heart; to have the Royal Court of France participate in a special ceremony consecrating France to the Sacred Heart, and to put the emblem of the Sacred Heart on the flag of France. The King did not obey. That was the great Louis XIV, known as the Sun King; he had all the pomp and so forth, but his monarchy fizzled into nothing very much by the end of his reign.
Nor did his successor, Louis XV, obey that command. One hundred years later to the day, on June 17, 1789, the Third Estate declared itself the National Assembly and excluded the King from making or having anything to do with legislation. The King, Louis XVI, was stripped of his power 100 years later to the day, and four years later his head was cut off in the guillotine.
Our Lord is saying to make it known to His ministers --- the Pope, the Cardinals and the bishops --- that they will follow the King of France (the one who had his head cut off) into disgrace and chastisement." http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/consecration-now2.htm And so likewise, it seems to fit that, if 100 years pass and the Divine Command is not obeyed, the Church of Rome will fall.

Personally, I think we should keep doing what Our Lady said at Fatima: Praying the Rosary every day, and 15 decades if we can; fasting, doing penance, and making sacrifices, consecrating ourselves to Her Immaculate Heart and the Sacred Heart. Growing in holiness and praying for the Church's Triumph. The Lord will decide what is best for His Church and for us His People. If chastisement comes, so be it.

If not, or at least if it is significantly ameliorated through prayer and sacrifices, Glory be to God. Another key to understanding the Fatima message is the approved apparitions of Akita, Japan. Pope Benedict XVI, an expert on these Apparitions, said the Message of Akita is essentially the same Message of Fatima. Now Akita clearly speaks of the work of the devil infiltrating the Church in such a way that we will see Cardinals against Cardinals and Bishops against Bishops. Once more, the message was, with the Rosary, pray for the Pope, the Cardinals and the Bishops. Like Saintly Sr. Lucia, Saintly Sr. Agnes - who is still with us and, after many years of silence, gave a grave and stern warning to pray the Penitential Rosary just before the Amazon Synod and the Pachamama abomination, not to mention Covid - based on Our Lady's words, chose to endure sufferings in order to obtain graces for the Church. We have to continue to pray and sacrifice. Perhaps complete Justice will fall, or perhaps God will show Mercy amidst Justice.

Regarding the rest, I think the Miracle of the Sun speaks for itself. Recall it was both a Miracle AND a Prophesy. How many Protestants forecast some apocalyptic event on a specific date and then it never happens. Our Lady of Fatima prophesied this. A huge crowd gathered, with many no doubt expecting that nothing at all would happen. But it did happen and 1000s of eyewitnesses experienced a miraculous event. Pope Ven. Pius XII's well documented words way back in 1933 show that Our Lady of Fatima was well aware that the enemies of Christ wanted to destroy the traditional Liturgy, which even they knew was the Source of the Church's great strength. Btw, I don't agree with the extreme opinion that the New Mass is invalid or like a Black Mass; I agree with Fr. Ripperger that the TLM is objectively superior to the NOM, but the NOM is also a valid Mass and confers Grace, though less than the Tridentine Mass. That explains many of Saintly Sr. Lucia's actions. I also don't believe the double theory. But some in the Hierarchy did try to silence Saintly Sr. Lucia and may have changed her correspondence etc. The future Consecration is still awaited by Heaven.

Perhaps it will be when Rome finally falls to a military invasion, such as that prophesied in the vision released in 2000, that the Roman Authorities, at last, will realize that Russia's Consecration was necessary. Perhaps Russia's military assistance will be required. We don't know, but it could be. And then at last, realizing we traditionalists, the SSPX, Fr. Gruner, Fr. Kramer, and many other good Priests who insisted that the Complete Consecration still needed to be done, they will finally do it. That too fits with the Lord's Word, that, like the King of France, they will repent and finally do it, but it will be very late. But He, the Lord, the King of kings, ends with a note of hope that "it will never be too late to have recourse to Jesus and Mary". Let's continue to pray and watch.
Bible verses on walking blamelessly with God, after being forgiven from our former sins. Some verses here: https://dailyverses.net/blameless

"[2] He that walketh without blemish, and worketh justice:[3] He that speaketh truth in his heart, who hath not used deceit in his tongue: Nor hath done evil to his neighbour: nor taken up a reproach against his neighbours.(Psalm 14)

"[2] For in many things we all offend. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man."(James 3)

"[14] And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations; [15] That you may be blameless, and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation; among whom you shine as lights in the world." (Phil 2:14-15)

MaximGun

Quote from: james03 on October 20, 2021, 05:03:45 AM
QuoteWatch the video above that I posted.

It clearly is the same woman.

I watched the video.  "Clearly" is not correct, clearly there are major differences.

Major differences?

Prove it.  They look like the same person to me.

Nobody looks at those pictures without a pre-conceived bias.  It suits them if good Sister Lucy was murdered and evil Sister Imposter replaced her.

As he "CLEARLY" states.  And it was very clear from the timeline.  Lucia's own niece was in the same convent with her during the period the Horvatian Conspiracy Theorists believe she was replaced.

ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez

Quote from: Xavier on October 20, 2021, 08:50:30 AM
On balance, I think it will be the invasion of Rome, perhaps by Communists, or maybe by Radical Islamic Terrorists.

This is an interesting thought, considering that Islamic Terrorism is a result of one of the errors of Russia -- balkanization and stirring up conflicts between groups to keep them from uniting.

https://catholicherald.co.uk/st-john-paul-ii-had-vision-of-an-islamist-invasion-of-europe/
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MaximGun

Quote from: Xavier on October 20, 2021, 08:50:30 AM
I agree with James that something remarkable is likely to happen in 2029.

Kicking the can down the road.

Tip:  If you kick it far enough you will be dead and not have to explain.

Kinda Jehovah's Witnessy.

I can pretty much guarantee that some event will happen in the 2030s or 2040s and it will be retrofitted to Fatima regardless of the 2029 date passing.

I've seen a lot of dates suggested in the past and they pass and there is never any serious reflection or cost for getting it wrong.  So kicking the can is easy and worthless.


Xavier

Right, Chairman Joe.

October 13th, 1917 was the first prophesied specific date, and a wonderful miracle actually happened, so that already sufficiently proves Fatima to me. How do you explain the fulfilment of that prophecy?

2029 is only a theory. A good theory, but a theory nonetheless. I don't know anyone who works miracles today - like a St. Padre Pio or someone - who has prophesied that something will surely happen in 2029.

Whatever happens, God is in control. Personally, I would love to see Catholic-Orthodox Re-Union over the next decade. The Pope and the Patriarch of Constantinople have already agreed to something like that for 2025. It would be great if Russia gets involved later on. Russia has good potential. Let's see what happens. I'm not prophesying anything.

What I am defending is Our Lady's Prophecies at Fatima; Her 1917 one, months in advance, was absolutely spot on, and nearly 100,000 eyewitnesses knew it. The 1933 Warnings shows She foreknew what would happen in the aftermath of Vatican II. The Akita message confirms Fatima is about the infiltration of the Church by Communists and other enemies of God. It all makes sense and it's all playing out before our eyes. In the wake of Covid, we see just how dangerous allowing Communist errors to spread from Russia, both to China, and to the West, has been for the whole world. Our Lady of Fatima is absolutely right.

God Bless.
Bible verses on walking blamelessly with God, after being forgiven from our former sins. Some verses here: https://dailyverses.net/blameless

"[2] He that walketh without blemish, and worketh justice:[3] He that speaketh truth in his heart, who hath not used deceit in his tongue: Nor hath done evil to his neighbour: nor taken up a reproach against his neighbours.(Psalm 14)

"[2] For in many things we all offend. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man."(James 3)

"[14] And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations; [15] That you may be blameless, and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation; among whom you shine as lights in the world." (Phil 2:14-15)

MaximGun

Quote from: ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez on October 20, 2021, 09:09:49 AM
Quote from: Xavier on October 20, 2021, 08:50:30 AM
On balance, I think it will be the invasion of Rome, perhaps by Communists, or maybe by Radical Islamic Terrorists.

This is an interesting thought, considering that Islamic Terrorism is a result of one of the errors of Russia -- balkanization and stirring up conflicts between groups to keep them from uniting.

https://catholicherald.co.uk/st-john-paul-ii-had-vision-of-an-islamist-invasion-of-europe/

Islamic Terrorism is a result of the errors of Russia?  How so?

What's next?  Bad weather?  Michael Jackson?  Dick Van Dyke's accent in Mary Poppins?  Sept 11th?

Are Russia to blame for everything now?  Does supporting Israel and bombing the crap out of the middle east not contribute towards Islamic terrorism?  Pretty sure they were NATO bombs, not Russian.

JP2 invites us to resist the invasion, while he kisses the Koran.  I am calling horseshit on that heretic's vision.

ChairmanJoeAintMyPrez

Quote from: MaximGun on October 20, 2021, 09:22:31 AM
Islamic Terrorism is a result of the errors of Russia?  How so?

Did you read the words that followed these words?
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