Vetus Ordo and Going to NO Mass

Started by Vetus Ordo, January 05, 2013, 11:48:28 PM

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Vetus Ordo

Quote from: LouisIX on January 06, 2013, 02:19:00 AM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on January 06, 2013, 02:17:44 AM
Quote from: LouisIX on January 06, 2013, 02:13:31 AM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on January 06, 2013, 02:08:33 AM
Quote from: LouisIX on January 06, 2013, 02:03:01 AM
Vetus, please keep in mind that this forum is a traditional Catholic one.  You know the arguments against the Novus Ordo and the shortcomings of the simple assertion that trads are disobedient.  This forum is not for arguing against traditional Catholicism.

Lirael asked how to act in a NO mass regarding certain specific points. I told her how.

Some people questioned my advice and I logically defended it. I'm not the one having knee-jerk reactions.

There's no problem with logically defending yourself, but just be careful not to flirt too close to arguing against traditionalism.  Assertions, for example, about the Novus Ordo Missal (which you made above) contradict the normal trad line and thus should be avoided per forum rules.

Which?

That it is an official liturgy of the Roman Church? That the Church and the pope approve it? Isn't that just a statement of fact?

"To say one hasn't to obey the GIRM because it was made by Protestants and Freemasons is to try to weasel out of something you can't really weasel out from."

Isn't that a strawman against typical trad concerns with the Novus Ordo Missae?

It's not a strawman.

If a given person, like Lirael, has no objections to go to the NO, then she should go and obey the GIRM like any Roman Catholic. There's no logical reason to be selective. They who made the NO, also made the GIRM.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.

LouisIX

Some trads feel that there are good reasons to behave as if they were attending a TLM rather than an NO while attending the NO.  Many believe that there are inherent problems with the Missal and the GIRM itself.  You know this.
IF I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

TerrorDæmonum

Quote from: Vetus Ordo on January 06, 2013, 02:21:29 AM
Quote from: Pæniteo on January 06, 2013, 02:11:55 AM
If they follow the rubrics only, then perhaps one can make a case for following them closely, however, if that is the case, it will be in Latin only, etc.

Not it won't. Latin is permitted but not required. Using the vernacular is not an "abuse," that is just a trad myth.
I did not say it was an abuse. I said "if they follow the rubrics only".

Quote
Furthermore, it is the diocesan bishop and then the Episcopal Conference of any given place that interpret the GIRM and how to act in the liturgy, not the laity.
So, what you are saying is the the laity are not to participate in the liturgical practices of the Church?

There are greater concerns. If there are heterodox teachings, possible abuses and desecration of the Blessed Sacrament, and ignorance of the Faith, then one has a very grave cause for concern.

I am familiar with the GIRM and the USCCB Norms, and I  can say that they are not being followed and some of the norms are questionable. While I do not think communion in the hand is something that is unacceptable in itself, I do think more thought should go behind it than "lets do it!". It is quite reckless at the very least.

In this chaos, we are required to be careful and prudent. One concern for example is in parishes with communion in the hand without any measure taken to prevent dropping fragments on the floor, should we walk over such areas? This alone can prevent people from going near the front of the church.



Vetus Ordo

Quote from: LouisIX on January 06, 2013, 02:27:39 AM
Some trads feel that there are good reasons to behave as if they were attending a TLM rather than an NO while attending the NO.  Many believe that there are inherent problems with the Missal and the GIRM itself.  You know this.

The "inherent problems" with the missal and GIRM would disqualify any person who believes in them from attending the Novus Ordo mass, wouldn't it? At least the sedevacantists are consistent when it comes to this: either the mass is Catholic or it isn't.

This is not Lirael's case, she has no problem attending the liturgy in question so she should behave as the Church expects her to behave. Attending the Novus Ordo mass like if you were in a TLM is an unjustified violation of its rubrics. Mind you, I already did so in times past but it's just a manifestation of immaturity.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.

Vetus Ordo

Quote from: Pæniteo on January 06, 2013, 02:34:44 AM
Quote
Furthermore, it is the diocesan bishop and then the Episcopal Conference of any given place that interpret the GIRM and how to act in the liturgy, not the laity.
So, what you are saying is the the laity are not to participate in the liturgical practices of the Church?

Yes, they are to participate in the Church's liturgy, obeying the Church's pastors which includes the rubrics they enforce.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.

Bonaventure

Quote from: Vetus Ordo on January 06, 2013, 02:35:39 AM
The "inherent problems" with the missal and GIRM would disqualify any person who believes in them from attending the Novus Ordo mass, wouldn't it? At least the sedevacantists are consistent when it comes to this: either the mass is Catholic or it isn't.

Yes, but those who aren't "consistent" are wrong for the right reasons at worst. I think they are consistent in heeding St. Paul's admonition in Galatians.

Apparent inconsistency in a time of crisis doesn't effect the Catholicity or sanity of an SSPXer. In rejecting, refusing, and/or avoiding a protestantized, novel, fabricated, and non-apostolic rite, they are following their sensus Catholicus and keeping the Faith. Catholicism is not a baptized form of voluntarism.
"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."

LouisIX

Quote from: Vetus Ordo on January 06, 2013, 02:35:39 AM
Quote from: LouisIX on January 06, 2013, 02:27:39 AM
Some trads feel that there are good reasons to behave as if they were attending a TLM rather than an NO while attending the NO.  Many believe that there are inherent problems with the Missal and the GIRM itself.  You know this.

The "inherent problems" with the missal and GIRM would disqualify any person who believes in them from attending the Novus Ordo mass, wouldn't it? At least the sedevacantists are consistent when it comes to this: either the mass is Catholic or it isn't.

No, they wouldn't necessarily disqualify someone.  One could believe that the Novus Ordo was valid and fulfilled the Sunday obligation without it being impeccable.

Do you understand, however, that the last line quoted above is an argumentation against the views of the SSPX, which are the normative guidelines for traditionalism on this forum?  Trad-bashing is not permitted, per rule 11.  This isn't a place to argue against traditionalism, and you are doing so on this thread.
IF I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

TerrorDæmonum

Quote from: Vetus Ordo on January 06, 2013, 02:08:33 AM
Quote from: LouisIX on January 06, 2013, 02:03:01 AM
Vetus, please keep in mind that this forum is a traditional Catholic one.  You know the arguments against the Novus Ordo and the shortcomings of the simple assertion that trads are disobedient.  This forum is not for arguing against traditional Catholicism.

Lirael asked how to act in a NO mass regarding certain specific points. I told her how.

Some people questioned my advice and I logically defended it. I'm not the one having knee-jerk reactions.

I think Lirael came to a traditional Catholic forum for traditional Catholic advice. Your doctrine should be clear to her.

If you are Protestant, I do not think she wanted your advice.

Vetus Ordo

Quote from: LouisIX on January 06, 2013, 02:41:46 AM
Do you understand, however, that the last line quoted above is an argumentation against the views of the SSPX, which are the normative guidelines for traditionalism on this forum?  Trad-bashing is not permitted, per rule 11.  This isn't a place to argue against traditionalism, and you are doing so on this thread.

I just gave the example of the sedevacantists being consistent on this point. There are quite a few on this forum, I gather.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.

Vetus Ordo

Quote from: Pæniteo on January 06, 2013, 02:42:23 AM
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on January 06, 2013, 02:08:33 AM
Quote from: LouisIX on January 06, 2013, 02:03:01 AM
Vetus, please keep in mind that this forum is a traditional Catholic one.  You know the arguments against the Novus Ordo and the shortcomings of the simple assertion that trads are disobedient.  This forum is not for arguing against traditional Catholicism.

Lirael asked how to act in a NO mass regarding certain specific points. I told her how.

Some people questioned my advice and I logically defended it. I'm not the one having knee-jerk reactions.

I think Lirael came to a traditional Catholic forum for traditional Catholic advice. Your doctrine should be clear to her.

If you are Protestant, I do not think she wanted your advice.

I gave the GIRM's advice.

Perhaps that's Protestant too.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.

Vetus Ordo

Quote from: Bonaventure on January 06, 2013, 02:40:22 AM
Apparent inconsistency in a time of crisis doesn't effect the Catholicity or sanity of an SSPXer. In rejecting, refusing, and/or avoiding a protestantized, novel, fabricated, and non-apostolic rite, they are following their sensus Catholicus and keeping the Faith. Catholicism is not a baptized form of voluntarism.

Nor is Roman Catholicism a baptised form of cardboard popery, is it? But then again, you already agree with that. You're just fulfilling your duties of moderator.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.

LouisIX

Quote from: Vetus Ordo on January 06, 2013, 02:47:46 AM
Quote from: LouisIX on January 06, 2013, 02:41:46 AM
Do you understand, however, that the last line quoted above is an argumentation against the views of the SSPX, which are the normative guidelines for traditionalism on this forum?  Trad-bashing is not permitted, per rule 11.  This isn't a place to argue against traditionalism, and you are doing so on this thread.

I just gave the example of the sedevacantists being consistent on this point. There are quite a few on this forum, I gather.

There are.  And it's fine if you agree with that point or any other one.  I suppose it's a fine line, but it's the way the rules are set up.

For example, you are completely ok with saying that, in your opinion, someone going to the NO should logically follow its GIRM.  To insinuate that not doing so, however, is illogical or unCatholic is breaking forum rules.

You don't have to be a trad to post here, but you also can't try to convert trads away from the basic traditionalist thesis.
IF I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

TerrorDæmonum


Bonaventure

Quote from: Vetus Ordo on January 06, 2013, 02:48:30 AM
I gave the GIRM's advice.

Perhaps that's Protestant too.

Well, Vetus, what would you have one do? A Catholic sees a problem with the Novus Ordo Missae, and that problem still exists regardless of what the GIRM says.
"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."

LouisIX

Quote from: Pæniteo on January 06, 2013, 02:52:53 AM
Protestant sophistry is a bit odd for a traditional Catholic forum.

And that's why it is not allowed here.  Protestants are welcomed fully, but error is not.  And since this is a traditional Catholic forum, the rules stem from the idea that traditional Catholicism is true.
IF I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.