Author Topic: Material Heretics Might Not Be Members of the Church  (Read 12116 times)

Offline Sbyvl36

  • Reichsführer of the SD Grammar Gestapo. Holy Roman Emperor in exile.
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 1681
  • Thanked: 20 times
  • Reichsführer of the Friendly Forum Fascists.
    • Sbyvl's Blog
  • Religion: Self-absorbed Promethean Neo-Pelagian
Re: Material Heretics Might Not Be Members of the Church
« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2014, 04:24:52 PM »
I believe he is using the terms in a very specific way which is not necessarily how the OP is interpreting them.

I'd be interested in LouisIX's thoughts, as the OP's opening and the actual text seem to go a little passed each other.

Even Fraghi recognizes that this subject is open to debate.  This is why "dogmatic sedevacantist" or "dogmatic sedeplenism" are so dangerous.  They treat this question as if it has been settled.  It is anything but. 

Everyone is free to hold a position on this.  I personally believe that material heretics are within the Body of Christ, but the Magisterium has refused an official pronunciation up until now.  I do think, however, that this will be an important question for the Church to address after the crisis has subsided.

Speaking of which, are we going to get a definition of what constitutes "dogmatic sedevacantism"?
My blog: sbyvl.wordpress.com

"Hold firmly that our faith is identical with that of the ancients. Deny this, and you dissolve the unity of the Church."
--St. Thomas Aquinas

"Neither the true faith nor eternal salvation is to be found outside the Holy Catholic Church."
--Pope Pius IX

“That the Conciliar Church is a schismatic Church, because it breaks with the Catholic Church that has always been. It has its new dogmas, its new priesthood, its new institutions, its new worship, all already condemned by the Church in many a document, official and definitive."
--Archbishop Lefebvre

Heliocentricism is idiocy.
 

Offline LouisIX

  • Oberstleutnant
  • Hauptmann
  • *****
  • Posts: 8971
  • Thanked: 1404 times
  • "Libtard"-in-Residence
Re: Material Heretics Might Not Be Members of the Church
« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2014, 04:25:54 PM »
That is my point. The distinction is important because if it isn't made, a Catholic who is merely mistaken (he is not pertinacious) is considered to be outside the Church. Apparently, even Fr. Cekada believes this.
Public material heretics still erode the unity of the Church, regardless their intentions.

That's true, but so do sinners, and they are not all necessary outside of the Church.
IF I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
 

Offline LouisIX

  • Oberstleutnant
  • Hauptmann
  • *****
  • Posts: 8971
  • Thanked: 1404 times
  • "Libtard"-in-Residence
Re: Material Heretics Might Not Be Members of the Church
« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2014, 04:26:38 PM »
I believe he is using the terms in a very specific way which is not necessarily how the OP is interpreting them.

I'd be interested in LouisIX's thoughts, as the OP's opening and the actual text seem to go a little passed each other.

Even Fraghi recognizes that this subject is open to debate.  This is why "dogmatic sedevacantist" or "dogmatic sedeplenism" are so dangerous.  They treat this question as if it has been settled.  It is anything but. 

Everyone is free to hold a position on this.  I personally believe that material heretics are within the Body of Christ, but the Magisterium has refused an official pronunciation up until now.  I do think, however, that this will be an important question for the Church to address after the crisis has subsided.

Speaking of which, are we going to get a definition of what constitutes "dogmatic sedevacantism"?

Yes.  We are in the process of finalizing that definition now.  It will be posted soon.
IF I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
 

Offline Sbyvl36

  • Reichsführer of the SD Grammar Gestapo. Holy Roman Emperor in exile.
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 1681
  • Thanked: 20 times
  • Reichsführer of the Friendly Forum Fascists.
    • Sbyvl's Blog
  • Religion: Self-absorbed Promethean Neo-Pelagian
Re: Material Heretics Might Not Be Members of the Church
« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2014, 04:28:44 PM »
I believe he is using the terms in a very specific way which is not necessarily how the OP is interpreting them.

I'd be interested in LouisIX's thoughts, as the OP's opening and the actual text seem to go a little passed each other.

Even Fraghi recognizes that this subject is open to debate.  This is why "dogmatic sedevacantist" or "dogmatic sedeplenism" are so dangerous.  They treat this question as if it has been settled.  It is anything but. 

Everyone is free to hold a position on this.  I personally believe that material heretics are within the Body of Christ, but the Magisterium has refused an official pronunciation up until now.  I do think, however, that this will be an important question for the Church to address after the crisis has subsided.

Speaking of which, are we going to get a definition of what constitutes "dogmatic sedevacantism"?

Yes.  We are in the process of finalizing that definition now.  It will be posted soon.

Gratzie!
My blog: sbyvl.wordpress.com

"Hold firmly that our faith is identical with that of the ancients. Deny this, and you dissolve the unity of the Church."
--St. Thomas Aquinas

"Neither the true faith nor eternal salvation is to be found outside the Holy Catholic Church."
--Pope Pius IX

“That the Conciliar Church is a schismatic Church, because it breaks with the Catholic Church that has always been. It has its new dogmas, its new priesthood, its new institutions, its new worship, all already condemned by the Church in many a document, official and definitive."
--Archbishop Lefebvre

Heliocentricism is idiocy.
 

Offline LouisIX

  • Oberstleutnant
  • Hauptmann
  • *****
  • Posts: 8971
  • Thanked: 1404 times
  • "Libtard"-in-Residence
Re: Material Heretics Might Not Be Members of the Church
« Reply #34 on: August 03, 2014, 04:30:17 PM »
Who moved this thread to "The Sedevacantist Thesis" subforum? I thought I posted it in "The Sacred Sciences" subforum since it doesn't directly pertain to sedevacantism and it requires "serious, semi-scholarly discussions on theology and philosophy." The most we can conclude is that it's uncertain whether John Paul II et al. can be considered true popes, and that assumes we've conclusively shown them to be material heretics. Thus it's at most sededoubtist, not sedevacantist.

I'm not sure why it was moved.  I am moving it back to the Sacred Sciences subforum as that is where it properly belongs.
IF I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
 

Offline RobertJS

  • It prays to poofread!
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1432
  • Thanked: 1 times
Re: Material Heretics Might Not Be Members of the Church
« Reply #35 on: August 03, 2014, 06:16:00 PM »
Quote from: RobertJS
Adult Catholics who are mistaken in the same way are considered dangerous Catholics and can be somewhat treated as non-Catholic, but still they are legally "Catholics" until determined by the Church to be pertinacious and cut-off.

This appears to justify your deciding who is and isn't "dangerous" and how they can be "somewhat treated as non-Catholics," whatever that might mean.

For instance, when Martin Luther was suspect, there was a time period in which he was being censured, but was still a Catholic. Between the start of his being admonished by the Church, and his final excommunication which made him a non-Catholic, people could treat him "somewhat" as a non-Catholic, meaning they had an obligation to avoid him and his writings as a danger.
Well, nobody is being censured today, so I'm not sure that example is a relevant one.

Yes, it is relevant. St. Athanasius and his followers shunned the Arians as heretics before the Church censured them.

ideo mittit illis Deus operationem erroris ut credant mendacio
 

Offline Norwich24

  • Vizekorporal
  • **
  • Posts: 154
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Material Heretics Might Not Be Members of the Church
« Reply #36 on: August 03, 2014, 10:39:57 PM »
Quote from: RobertJS
Adult Catholics who are mistaken in the same way are considered dangerous Catholics and can be somewhat treated as non-Catholic, but still they are legally "Catholics" until determined by the Church to be pertinacious and cut-off.

This appears to justify your deciding who is and isn't "dangerous" and how they can be "somewhat treated as non-Catholics," whatever that might mean.

For instance, when Martin Luther was suspect, there was a time period in which he was being censured, but was still a Catholic. Between the start of his being admonished by the Church, and his final excommunication which made him a non-Catholic, people could treat him "somewhat" as a non-Catholic, meaning they had an obligation to avoid him and his writings as a danger.
Well, nobody is being censured today, so I'm not sure that example is a relevant one.

Yes, it is relevant. St. Athanasius and his followers shunned the Arians as heretics before the Church censured them.


Well Robert, first you give the example of Martin Luther, then when I say that that example isn't relevant, you say it is and then change the conversation to the Arians.
 

Offline Norwich24

  • Vizekorporal
  • **
  • Posts: 154
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Material Heretics Might Not Be Members of the Church
« Reply #37 on: August 03, 2014, 10:53:07 PM »
The point is that Catholics don't and can't become "material heretics" as some sort of step to "formal heresy."
 

Offline Geremia

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3288
  • Thanked: 745 times
    • St. Isidore e-book library
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: Material Heretics Might Not Be Members of the Church
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2014, 12:44:38 AM »
Speaking of which, are we going to get a definition of what constitutes "dogmatic sedevacantism"?
Here you go: extra sedevacantismo nulla salus.

Offline Geremia

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3288
  • Thanked: 745 times
    • St. Isidore e-book library
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: Material Heretics Might Not Be Members of the Church
« Reply #39 on: August 04, 2014, 12:51:30 AM »
That is my point. The distinction is important because if it isn't made, a Catholic who is merely mistaken (he is not pertinacious) is considered to be outside the Church. Apparently, even Fr. Cekada believes this.
Public material heretics still erode the unity of the Church, regardless their intentions.

That's true, but so do sinners, and they are not all necessary outside of the Church.
Yes, but sins against the faith are the worst possible sins (unbelief [e.g., heresy, apostasy, etc.] is the greatest sin):
Quote from: Summa II-II q. 10 a. 3 c.
Every sin consists formally in aversion from God, as stated above (FS, Question [71], Article [6]; FS, Question [73], Article [3]). Hence the more a sin severs man from God, the graver it is. Now man is more than ever separated from God by unbelief, because he has not even true knowledge of God: and by false knowledge of God, man does not approach Him, but is severed from Him.

Nor is it possible for one who has a false opinion of God, to know Him in any way at all, because the object of his opinion is not God. Therefore it is clear that the sin of unbelief is greater than any sin that occurs in the perversion of morals. This does not apply to the sins that are opposed to the theological virtues, as we shall stated further on (Question [20], Article [3]; Question [34], Article [2], ad 2; Question [39], Article [2], ad 3).

Offline Sbyvl36

  • Reichsführer of the SD Grammar Gestapo. Holy Roman Emperor in exile.
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 1681
  • Thanked: 20 times
  • Reichsführer of the Friendly Forum Fascists.
    • Sbyvl's Blog
  • Religion: Self-absorbed Promethean Neo-Pelagian
Re: Material Heretics Might Not Be Members of the Church
« Reply #40 on: August 04, 2014, 08:36:54 AM »
Speaking of which, are we going to get a definition of what constitutes "dogmatic sedevacantism"?
Here you go: extra sedevacantismo nulla salus.

I like this definition.  Nobody would ever get in trouble for it.
My blog: sbyvl.wordpress.com

"Hold firmly that our faith is identical with that of the ancients. Deny this, and you dissolve the unity of the Church."
--St. Thomas Aquinas

"Neither the true faith nor eternal salvation is to be found outside the Holy Catholic Church."
--Pope Pius IX

“That the Conciliar Church is a schismatic Church, because it breaks with the Catholic Church that has always been. It has its new dogmas, its new priesthood, its new institutions, its new worship, all already condemned by the Church in many a document, official and definitive."
--Archbishop Lefebvre

Heliocentricism is idiocy.
 

Offline RobertJS

  • It prays to poofread!
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1432
  • Thanked: 1 times
Re: Material Heretics Might Not Be Members of the Church
« Reply #41 on: August 04, 2014, 09:15:12 AM »
Quote from: RobertJS
Adult Catholics who are mistaken in the same way are considered dangerous Catholics and can be somewhat treated as non-Catholic, but still they are legally "Catholics" until determined by the Church to be pertinacious and cut-off.

This appears to justify your deciding who is and isn't "dangerous" and how they can be "somewhat treated as non-Catholics," whatever that might mean.

For instance, when Martin Luther was suspect, there was a time period in which he was being censured, but was still a Catholic. Between the start of his being admonished by the Church, and his final excommunication which made him a non-Catholic, people could treat him "somewhat" as a non-Catholic, meaning they had an obligation to avoid him and his writings as a danger.
Well, nobody is being censured today, so I'm not sure that example is a relevant one.

Yes, it is relevant. St. Athanasius and his followers shunned the Arians as heretics before the Church censured them.


Well Robert, first you give the example of Martin Luther, then when I say that that example isn't relevant, you say it is and then change the conversation to the Arians.

They are both relevant for the same converstation. These are two examples of treating dangerous Catholics somewhat like non-Catholics before the Church declares they are no longer Catholics.

ideo mittit illis Deus operationem erroris ut credant mendacio
 

Offline Norwich24

  • Vizekorporal
  • **
  • Posts: 154
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Material Heretics Might Not Be Members of the Church
« Reply #42 on: August 04, 2014, 10:28:46 AM »
Quote from: RobertJS
They are both relevant for the same converstation. These are two examples of treating dangerous Catholics somewhat like non-Catholics before the Church declares they are no longer Catholics.

Who are the "dangerous Catholics" today?
 

Offline RobertJS

  • It prays to poofread!
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1432
  • Thanked: 1 times
Re: Material Heretics Might Not Be Members of the Church
« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2014, 10:50:40 AM »
Quote from: RobertJS
They are both relevant for the same converstation. These are two examples of treating dangerous Catholics somewhat like non-Catholics before the Church declares they are no longer Catholics.

Who are the "dangerous Catholics" today?

You will have to conscientiously decide for yourself. Any type of association that is a serious danger of being perverted in morals or doctrine.

Harken back again to the example of the followers of St. Athanasius. The Arian clergy only had one subtle philosophical error against the Trinity, which didn't mean every single priest would preach it at Mass. All the Arian Masses and Sacraments were valid, yet the followers of St. Athanasius didn't seek out priests who did not preach the error....they entirely shunned the Arian churches, and suffered inconveniences and risk by attending Mass in the mountains. The point: they considered this situation enough of a danger to decide their course of action. This is for our example today.


ideo mittit illis Deus operationem erroris ut credant mendacio
 

Offline Norwich24

  • Vizekorporal
  • **
  • Posts: 154
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Material Heretics Might Not Be Members of the Church
« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2014, 10:54:17 AM »
Quote from: RobertJS
They are both relevant for the same converstation. These are two examples of treating dangerous Catholics somewhat like non-Catholics before the Church declares they are no longer Catholics.

Who are the "dangerous Catholics" today?

You will have to conscientiously decide for yourself. Any type of association that is a serious danger of being perverted in morals or doctrine.

Harken back again to the example of the followers of St. Athanasius. The Arian clergy only had one subtle philosophical error against the Trinity, which didn't mean every single priest would preach it at Mass. All the Arian Masses and Sacraments were valid, yet the followers of St. Athanasius didn't seek out priests who did not preach the error....they entirely shunned the Arian churches, and suffered inconveniences and risk by attending Mass in the mountains. The point: they considered this situation enough of a danger to decide their course of action. This is for our example today.

So what groups are dangerous today? If you can't name them, isn't it because you are just playing politics?