Author Topic: Humility: Good or Bad?  (Read 13503 times)

Offline Crimson Flyboy

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Humility: Good or Bad?
« on: October 12, 2013, 10:23:04 PM »
Louis IX and Gerard, we can pick up where we left off here.

I'll start by stating that humility is bad and I prefer pride.  Humility is anti-humanistic, while pride is a wonderful virtue that celebrates man qua man.
You will win when you are ready to pronounce the oath I have taken at the start of my battle-and for those who wish to know the day of my return, I shall now repeat it to the hearing of the world:

的 swear-by my life and my love of it-that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." - John Galt

Offline LouisIX

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Re: Humility: Good or Bad?
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2013, 11:18:36 PM »
How is humility anti-humanistic?  What value do you give to empathy and altruism?  To what extent can these things flourish when pride (and not humility) is celebrated as a principle virtue?
IF I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

Offline james03

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Re: Humility: Good or Bad?
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2013, 11:29:41 PM »
Quote
I'll start by stating that humility is bad and I prefer pride.  Humility is anti-humanistic, while pride is a wonderful virtue that celebrates man qua man.

You are seriously mistaken.  You have probably heard sermons where we are to view ourselves as nothing but worms.  This really is meant for mystics and those at very high level spiritual life.

Humility is simply this:  telling the truth about yourself TO yourself and to God, and to others where it doesn't conflict with your personal privacy, e.g. telling everyone about your sins would be too much.

Ask yourself this:  How can the Church preach humility and magnanimity at the same time?  And yet both are Catholic virtues.  You are working on the wrong definition, something meant for meditation and not daily life.  Humility is an incredible blessing.  Alpha males and all the great leaders were humble.  Because humility allows you to know yourself.  Magnanimity is only possible from a humble person.

Pride is a horror to behold.  Pride goes far beyond self-respect, which is healthy.  Prideful people are oftentimes failures in life.  There is a reason for this.  Once they refuse to face their real self, they live a lie and can no longer grow.

Offline james03

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Re: Humility: Good or Bad?
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2013, 11:31:13 PM »
So you are really an atheist?  Good to have you here and I hope you are here to learn the opposing argument and not to troll.  I enjoy conversations with SINCERE atheists who really want to know the truth.

Offline Gerard

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Re: Humility: Good or Bad?
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2013, 11:37:02 PM »
Louis IX and Gerard, we can pick up where we left off here.

I'll start by stating that humility is bad and I prefer pride.  Humility is anti-humanistic, while pride is a wonderful virtue that celebrates man qua man.

Let's start by clarifying terms.  What do you mean by "bad"?  Probably you should also supply definitions for pride and humility as well as what "good" means.  The discussion can be worthwhile if I know we are all submitting to the same understanding of the language used. 


Offline Crimson Flyboy

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Re: Humility: Good or Bad?
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2013, 11:37:46 PM »

So you are really an atheist?  Good to have you here and I hope you are here to learn the opposing argument and not to troll.  I enjoy conversations with SINCERE atheists who really want to know the truth.

I am.  All I care about is the truth, and I respect the Church very much.
You will win when you are ready to pronounce the oath I have taken at the start of my battle-and for those who wish to know the day of my return, I shall now repeat it to the hearing of the world:

的 swear-by my life and my love of it-that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." - John Galt

Offline james03

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Re: Humility: Good or Bad?
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2013, 11:45:28 PM »
Well that's good.  You will discover that the only rational philosophy of atheism is semantic nihilism, something that I think is implausible, to say the least.

And I'm glad you respect the Church.  For she teaches the following:

Quote
With reason, then, the common opinion of mankind, little affected by the few dissidents who have contended for the opposite view, has found in the careful study of nature, and in the laws of nature, the foundations of the division of property, and the practice of all ages has consecrated the principle of private ownership, as being pre-eminently in conformity with human nature, and as conducing in the most unmistakable manner to the peace and tranquility of human existence. The same principle is confirmed and enforced by the civil laws-laws which, so long as they are just, derive from the law of nature their binding force.  The authority of the divine law adds its sanction, forbidding us in severest terms even to covet that which is another's: "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife; nor his house, nor his field, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is his.

If you like Ayn Rand, please consider reading my book:  Link to FREE book  It fills in the holes.

Offline Crimson Flyboy

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Re: Humility: Good or Bad?
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2013, 11:45:49 PM »

Louis IX and Gerard, we can pick up where we left off here.

I'll start by stating that humility is bad and I prefer pride.  Humility is anti-humanistic, while pride is a wonderful virtue that celebrates man qua man.

Let's start by clarifying terms.  What do you mean by "bad"?  Probably you should also supply definitions for pride and humility as well as what "good" means.  The discussion can be worthwhile if I know we are all submitting to the same understanding of the language used.

Excellent point.  A thing is bad in so far as it does not advance man in his quest for survival.  Pride is the joy one takes in achieving one's own moral perfection.  Humility is self-abasement, it is to see no value in one's own self.  The humble man says 'I am no good, and I do not intend on improving'.  Clearly y'all are using the term differently.
You will win when you are ready to pronounce the oath I have taken at the start of my battle-and for those who wish to know the day of my return, I shall now repeat it to the hearing of the world:

的 swear-by my life and my love of it-that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." - John Galt

Offline Gerard

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Re: Humility: Good or Bad?
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2013, 11:49:15 PM »

So you are really an atheist?  Good to have you here and I hope you are here to learn the opposing argument and not to troll.  I enjoy conversations with SINCERE atheists who really want to know the truth.

I am.  All I care about is the truth, and I respect the Church very much.

So much more that we should clarify terms.  Pride as a word even in its etymology is not about truth. Pride is about puffing out one's chest unnaturally and creating an illusion of being more than one is. 

Humility is about truth, knowing one's place.  A prideful person is a 40+ year old oversized person in bad shape that still thinks they can become an Olympic gymnast and win the gold.   A humble person is a person that is young and is really a gymnast and has competed to the point where the Olympics is a real possibility and they do have a reasonable chance of winning.

As an aside, due to a lecture I listened to tonight by Micheal Coren, I would describe you as a subjective atheist and objectively agnostic. 
 

 

Offline james03

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Re: Humility: Good or Bad?
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2013, 11:49:34 PM »
Quote
  A thing is bad in so far as it does not advance man in his quest for survival.

Are you a communist?  What do you mean by "man"?

Also my question still stands, how can the Church preach humility and magnanimity at the same time?

I guess you answered this in saying we use different definitions.  Another example is the Cardinal Virtue of Prudence.  Prudence today means pragmatic.  That is not the classic definition.  The classic definition (read: Aristotle) is this:  aligning yourself with reality.  Note that the Church places this as the first cardinal virtue.

Offline Crimson Flyboy

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Re: Humility: Good or Bad?
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2013, 11:52:49 PM »

Well that's good.  You will discover that the only rational philosophy of atheism is semantic nihilism, something that I think is implausible, to say the least.

And I'm glad you respect the Church.  For she teaches the following:

Quote
With reason, then, the common opinion of mankind, little affected by the few dissidents who have contended for the opposite view, has found in the careful study of nature, and in the laws of nature, the foundations of the division of property, and the practice of all ages has consecrated the principle of private ownership, as being pre-eminently in conformity with human nature, and as conducing in the most unmistakable manner to the peace and tranquility of human existence. The same principle is confirmed and enforced by the civil laws-laws which, so long as they are just, derive from the law of nature their binding force.  The authority of the divine law adds its sanction, forbidding us in severest terms even to covet that which is another's: "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife; nor his house, nor his field, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is his.

If you like Ayn Rand, please consider reading my book:  Link to FREE book  It fills in the holes.

Ayn Rand toyed with nihilism early in her life, but broke with it later in her life.  In fact, she became a fierce critic of nihilism.  I don't like nihilism, it's what happens to a theist who has given up his faith and hasn't yet learned how to cope.
You will win when you are ready to pronounce the oath I have taken at the start of my battle-and for those who wish to know the day of my return, I shall now repeat it to the hearing of the world:

的 swear-by my life and my love of it-that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." - John Galt

Offline Crimson Flyboy

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Re: Humility: Good or Bad?
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2013, 11:59:41 PM »


So you are really an atheist?  Good to have you here and I hope you are here to learn the opposing argument and not to troll.  I enjoy conversations with SINCERE atheists who really want to know the truth.

I am.  All I care about is the truth, and I respect the Church very much.

So much more that we should clarify terms.  Pride as a word even in its etymology is not about truth. Pride is about puffing out one's chest unnaturally and creating an illusion of being more than one is. 

Humility is about truth, knowing one's place.  A prideful person is a 40+ year old oversized person in bad shape that still thinks they can become an Olympic gymnast and win the gold.   A humble person is a person that is young and is really a gymnast and has competed to the point where the Olympics is a real possibility and they do have a reasonable chance of winning.

As an aside, due to a lecture I listened to tonight by Micheal Coren, I would describe you as a subjective atheist and objectively agnostic. 
 

Understood.  I am not agnostic because this term means that something can not be known.  I think that if God were to exist, surely he would reveal himself to mankind.
You will win when you are ready to pronounce the oath I have taken at the start of my battle-and for those who wish to know the day of my return, I shall now repeat it to the hearing of the world:

的 swear-by my life and my love of it-that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." - John Galt

Offline james03

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Re: Humility: Good or Bad?
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2013, 12:00:58 AM »
Yes, she strictly opposed it.  She makes a statement about it in Atlas Shrugged that most people miss.  It is in the end when James Taggert is trying to kill Galt.  After a while, he says, No. No. No., and then Galt says Yes. and Taggert goes insane.  What Taggert realized was that he was a nihilist and worshipped death.

Since Rand based her philosophy on Aristotle (talk about contradiction), so she said a lot of very Catholic things.

By the way, what do you mean by "man"?  The individual, or the race?

Offline Crimson Flyboy

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Re: Humility: Good or Bad?
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2013, 12:02:32 AM »

Quote
  A thing is bad in so far as it does not advance man in his quest for survival.

Are you a communist?  What do you mean by "man"?

Also my question still stands, how can the Church preach humility and magnanimity at the same time?

I guess you answered this in saying we use different definitions.  Another example is the Cardinal Virtue of Prudence.  Prudence today means pragmatic.  That is not the classic definition.  The classic definition (read: Aristotle) is this:  aligning yourself with reality.  Note that the Church places this as the first cardinal virtue.

I am not a Communist, I am a bitter opponent of Communism.  And by man I mean an individual.
You will win when you are ready to pronounce the oath I have taken at the start of my battle-and for those who wish to know the day of my return, I shall now repeat it to the hearing of the world:

的 swear-by my life and my love of it-that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." - John Galt

Offline james03

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Re: Humility: Good or Bad?
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2013, 12:07:28 AM »
OK.  So where does love come in?  Is it bad for a man to die defending his wife and kids?  Don't we KNOW that when a man dies defending his wife, he is making the greatest declaration of love for his wife and kids?  That contradicts your definition because dying is not surviving.  Your definition calls that evil.  Do you believe that?

How about brotherly love?  A man jumps on a grenade to save his brother soldiers.  We KNOW in our heart that this is the greatest declaration of brotherly love, and yet according to you this would be evil.  Do you believe this?