Author Topic: Austrian chancellor predicts end to ‘wrongly understood tolerance’ for .. Islam  (Read 1485 times)

Offline christulsa

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I want to follow up on a few things James and christulsa said in their last posts.

I'm an American who lived in Latin America for more than 25 years, in the 1980's and 90's and again from 2010 to 2015.

Thank you FamilyRosary.  This post made for some good Sunday morning reading.
 
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Offline FamilyRosary

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I'm sorry I was so long-winded but it's hard for a non-professional writer to summarize huge chunks of history and culture in such a small space.

I'm glad some members liked my post but what I'm going to say no they might not like so much.

I grew up in a typical Rust Belt town with a heavy Catholic population, mostly Polish, Lithuanian and Lebanese in origin but with some German, Irish, Italian, Croatian, and later Filipino and Vietnamese. Our nearest media market was Chicago, the most Catholic large city after Boston, where the Mass was transmitted live on Sunday morning on all three networks. (ABC, NBC, and CBS for you youngsters who don't know what I'm talking about!) If you had a good antenna on the roof you could also pick up programming from South Bend, Indiana, another heavily Catholic market for reasons I hope I don't have to explain here.

From there I lived in Puerto Rico, another Catholic majority land, and then on to other Latin American nations.

Come to find out, the majority of those people, hometown and overseas, had quite possibly just been faking it. As soon as it was acceptable, they abandoned the Church for another one or for none, or insisted for nostalgic reasons perhaps that they were still Catholic while disagreeing with and disobeying almost everything the Church teaches. (Biden-Pelosi-Ted Kennedy, etc.)

I know there's another thread right now on Iran on this same topic, and my own experiences have made me reflect on things. Back in the day, I lived in a supposedly Catholic community surrounded by supposed Catholics. Did those people suddenly change or had they been putting on a show the whole time? Certainly many of them were sincere, and the TV programs were cleaner and the streets were safer. Those things mean something even if the majority were just acting a part.

Or were they? I just don't know. What I do know is that if today I go to a Latin Mass or even a conservative Novus Ordo, or if I go to the church down the street in Latin America, the people sitting next to me in the pew are actually believers. There no longer exists any societal compulsion for them to go there or be seen there, so those who were faking it no longer need to waste their precious time. When I go to a Catholic church I'm actually in the company of my fellow Catholics. I'm not sure that was true in 1980 or 1970 or even 1960 or 1950.

I won't say that I don't have nostalgia for those childhood days when I saw so many of my school buddies in the pews on Sunday morning, or when I went to the grocery store and saw the old Polish ladies with their head scarves and little prayer books in the glove compartment. Or when I arrived in a Latin American village and the people asked me what religion I was and I said "Catholic" a big smile broke out on their faces and they invited me into their homes. I do have nostalgia.

Nonetheless I have to ask the question: Does God prefer Christendom, or a faithful remnant?
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Offline james03

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Vatican II happened.

As far as Latin Americans being "Catholic", I guess in the sense that they aren't atheist they are Catholic.  Sexual immorality is common and the "Mass" is a "local music, inculturated" sing-a-long.  So maybe better than atheism, but it's a stretch to call it Catholic (and yes I know about the exceptions, like the excellent Fr. Pinzon of Colombia).  My experience is first hand in Venezuela and second hand in Colombia.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"
 

Offline Prayerful

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Just a footnote in this discussion, but it may be relevant to consider the case of John Riley and the San Patricios, the 19th c. Irish Catholics who felt a closer cultural and spiritual kinship with Mexicans than they did with Americans, to the extent that they switched sides in the war.  "Irish-Iberian" indeed.

Irish and German Catholics who were pushed beyond endurance with a mix of arbitrary punishment and insults to their Faith.

The Chieftains have a few song, one below:

Padre Pio: Pray, hope, and don't worry. Worry is useless. God is merciful and will hear your prayer.
 
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Online Heinrich

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I'm sorry I was so long-winded but it's hard for a non-professional writer to summarize huge chunks of history and culture in such a small space.

I'm glad some members liked my post but what I'm going to say no they might not like so much.

I grew up in a typical Rust Belt town with a heavy Catholic population, mostly Polish, Lithuanian and Lebanese in origin but with some German, Irish, Italian, Croatian, and later Filipino and Vietnamese. Our nearest media market was Chicago, the most Catholic large city after Boston, where the Mass was transmitted live on Sunday morning on all three networks. (ABC, NBC, and CBS for you youngsters who don't know what I'm talking about!) If you had a good antenna on the roof you could also pick up programming from South Bend, Indiana, another heavily Catholic market for reasons I hope I don't have to explain here.

From there I lived in Puerto Rico, another Catholic majority land, and then on to other Latin American nations.

Come to find out, the majority of those people, hometown and overseas, had quite possibly just been faking it. As soon as it was acceptable, they abandoned the Church for another one or for none, or insisted for nostalgic reasons perhaps that they were still Catholic while disagreeing with and disobeying almost everything the Church teaches. (Biden-Pelosi-Ted Kennedy, etc.)

I know there's another thread right now on Iran on this same topic, and my own experiences have made me reflect on things. Back in the day, I lived in a supposedly Catholic community surrounded by supposed Catholics. Did those people suddenly change or had they been putting on a show the whole time? Certainly many of them were sincere, and the TV programs were cleaner and the streets were safer. Those things mean something even if the majority were just acting a part.

Or were they? I just don't know. What I do know is that if today I go to a Latin Mass or even a conservative Novus Ordo, or if I go to the church down the street in Latin America, the people sitting next to me in the pew are actually believers. There no longer exists any societal compulsion for them to go there or be seen there, so those who were faking it no longer need to waste their precious time. When I go to a Catholic church I'm actually in the company of my fellow Catholics. I'm not sure that was true in 1980 or 1970 or even 1960 or 1950.

I won't say that I don't have nostalgia for those childhood days when I saw so many of my school buddies in the pews on Sunday morning, or when I went to the grocery store and saw the old Polish ladies with their head scarves and little prayer books in the glove compartment. Or when I arrived in a Latin American village and the people asked me what religion I was and I said "Catholic" a big smile broke out on their faces and they invited me into their homes. I do have nostalgia.

Nonetheless I have to ask the question: Does God prefer Christendom, or a faithful remnant?

Are you a Boilermaker or a Hoosier? I remember going off to college in the middle part of Indiana and being surrounded by Region guys. Most were Catholic, some Orthodox. They were all "from" Chicago and all loved the Cubs, Bears, and Fighting Irish. One of my better friends was from Highland and attended Mass each Sunday.
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.
 

Offline FamilyRosary

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Haha, no, I didn't go to either Purdue or Indiana, but I am one of dose Bears and Cubs guys, or at least I used to be, now I don't give a falooey about a bunch of cocaine-addicted multimillionaires. One of my sisters is a Purdue alum, though.
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Online Heinrich

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Haha, no, I didn't go to either Purdue or Indiana, but I am one of dose Bears and Cubs guys, or at least I used to be, now I don't give a falooey about a bunch of cocaine-addicted multimillionaires. One of my sisters is a Purdue alum, though.

There was culture shock for us southern Indianans to some extent: we were either Cincy or St. Louis fans, they had a weird Great Lakes Midland accent, hockey players, union, union, union, etc. I agree with your assessment on the modern athlete. Sports is poetry in motion, if you'll pardon the cliche, but athletes were doggerels in the 50s and 60s, too.  I read enough bios on players from the era.
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.
 
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Offline FamilyRosary

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Vatican II happened.

As far as Latin Americans being "Catholic", I guess in the sense that they aren't atheist they are Catholic.  Sexual immorality is common and the "Mass" is a "local music, inculturated" sing-a-long.  So maybe better than atheism, but it's a stretch to call it Catholic (and yes I know about the exceptions, like the excellent Fr. Pinzon of Colombia).  My experience is first hand in Venezuela and second hand in Colombia.

Not everybody is the same. I know a lot of good faithful Catholics in Latin America. Only a handful of dried-up old prunes still follow Liberation Theology, and those who think it's more important to go around dressed like the second wife in an Afghani harem than to believe in the Real Presence or the Trinity converted to the gringo sects a long time ago. Of course among the young and middle-aged there are a lot of skeptics and agnostics just as there are here or in any country today, but in most Latin American countries you get Holy Week off, you can bring traffic to a halt with a procession or admire a  Nativity scene in the central park, feminists and other such radicals are rightly regarded as being a bunch of dangerous schizoids, and people still hold up the family as the building block of society. There are two or more Catholic channels on every TV set and Catholic radio stations too.

After years of dormancy, Catholics in L.A. are finally starting to fight back against secularism and the sects. They have a much larger presence at the universities than they do here or in Europe.
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Offline FamilyRosary

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Haha, no, I didn't go to either Purdue or Indiana, but I am one of dose Bears and Cubs guys, or at least I used to be, now I don't give a falooey about a bunch of cocaine-addicted multimillionaires. One of my sisters is a Purdue alum, though.

There was culture shock for us southern Indianans to some extent: we were either Cincy or St. Louis fans, they had a weird Great Lakes Midland accent, hockey players, union, union, union, etc. I agree with your assessment on the modern athlete. Sports is poetry in motion, if you'll pardon the cliche, but athletes were doggerels in the 50s and 60s, too.  I read enough bios on players from the era.

You stereotyped us rather well. That weird accent has gotten even weirder over the years, even my own family sounds strange to me now.

Unions? My whole family belonged to the unions. Back then the unions weeded out the Commies, thanks to George Meaney, a good old Irishman from the Bronx.
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Online Heinrich

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Haha, no, I didn't go to either Purdue or Indiana, but I am one of dose Bears and Cubs guys, or at least I used to be, now I don't give a falooey about a bunch of cocaine-addicted multimillionaires. One of my sisters is a Purdue alum, though.

There was culture shock for us southern Indianans to some extent: we were either Cincy or St. Louis fans, they had a weird Great Lakes Midland accent, hockey players, union, union, union, etc. I agree with your assessment on the modern athlete. Sports is poetry in motion, if you'll pardon the cliche, but athletes were doggerels in the 50s and 60s, too.  I read enough bios on players from the era.

You stereotyped us rather well. That weird accent has gotten even weirder over the years, even my own family sounds strange to me now.

Unions? My whole family belonged to the unions. Back then the unions weeded out the Commies, thanks to George Meaney, a good old Irishman from the Bronx.

Right, unions. Everything from the camper factory in SB, the mills in Gary, and even Chrysler in Kokomo and Fort Wayne. I am from Jasper, the wood manufacturing hub of the Midwest, and there wasn't a union at all. Even at the Whirlpool in Evansville, no union. Good wages enough, but not like in Yankee Indiana.
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.
 
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Offline FamilyRosary

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We had it good and we didn't know it, kind of like 2019.
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Offline james03

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Quote
After years of dormancy, Catholics in L.A. are finally starting to fight back against secularism and the sects. They have a much larger presence at the universities than they do here or in Europe.
That's good news.  My experience dates from around 2005.  My main argument is that a notion that illegals coming to the US are pious Catholics who will vote conservative is wrong.  They are socialists and religion is just a cultural thing.  I also worked with a lot of illegals in the oilfields and they weren't Catholic.  I'm sure they went home to their families (girlfriends, plural) at Christmas, but that was the extent of it.  Currently they vote 80% socialist.  It will be interesting to see the breakdown from the recent election.  Florida was a big surprise.  However if Trump lost Arizona, it was because their population is now down to 55% white.

But maybe a revival has been brewing as you have witnessed, and we'll see some benefit.  We'll see.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"
 

Offline FamilyRosary

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I wouldn't go so far as to say a revival is brewing. It's more like the remaining faithful have at least been fortified in their faith and have gained some more knowledge about it. The percentage of Catholics vs. Evangelicals has stabilized. The numbers don't look good in many countries but those that didn't leave the Church now know why they stayed. Some of Pope Francis's statements about marriage and divorce have also caused them to look more closely at the Church's teachings on those matters. Women in particular see any move towards legitimizing divorce as a threat to their status and Francis's confusing remarks seemingly in favor of civil unions for homosexuals have caused alarm even in the average Latino pew sitter. People in those countries are not nearly as inclined to worship gays and their lifestyle as are Americans and Europeans.

You're also right to point out that the majority of those crossing our southern border are not practicing Catholics or any kind of Catholic at all. They should be loved as our neighbors, the same as for anyone else, and treated charitably, but to say that they are adding Catholics to our population as we have often heard said is simply not true. They are largely religiously indifferent, will accept handouts from whatever church or sect offers them, and then once established here will stop going to any religious services altogether. The people who say that they are the "future of the Church" are the same ones who believe that America has now elected its second Catholic president, and their motive is not to augment the parish registrations but to replace Republicans with potential Democrats.
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Offline james03

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They should be loved as our neighbors, the same as for anyone else, and treated charitably, but to say that they are adding Catholics to our population as we have often heard said is simply not true.
We tried that when Reagan cucked on amnesty.  The result is California.  The boarder should have been mined instead.  LOOK at the devastation that is California as Americans with any sense leave Little Mexico.  THAT is the future of the US.  Mexican culture is highly flawed and Americans don't want it here.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"
 

Offline christulsa

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But guacamole.
 
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