Author Topic: Bishop Fellay on regularization  (Read 2926 times)

Offline Bonaventure

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Bishop Fellay on regularization
« on: March 08, 2017, 01:45:52 PM »
Bishop Fellay gave this Spanish sermon in Poland (of all places). I found it quite interesting. Note that is is from poor audio, and the bishop's not a native speaker The following translation is mine:

"There is a rumor that has circulated these last days that has excited some, saying that the Fraternity is to buy a church with a building, that the pope (unintelligible) that the agreement with Rome is close. This news is false. They are rumors, rumors that stir the people, but let's take a look at the truth: it's true that we are looking for a church. We already have a very small one, too small, so we look in Rome for a church. This is true, but not this church. And the decision is charged to the Congregation for Religious. Because the same building that we are interested in is a building that belongs to sisters, and until now, for two months, we wait for an answer that doesn't come. This is one point.

For the other, which is much more important, that is what point are we at in our relations with Rome. We can see two levels. One canonical level, this is, the structure that Rome prepares for us. And as such, Rome wants to give us a structure that corresponds most precisely to our reality. And what is our reality? We have priests, we have bishops, we have faithful, we have priories, schools, seminaries, and what Rome wants to do is give us a structure that contains all these. Like a diocese. The name that they want to give is a personal prelature. But the reality is more than what is found in canon law, or also that only one that exists which is the Opus Dei. Because the Opus Dei doesn't have as a right a bishop. It's only by the pleasure of the pope, he decides if they will or they won't have as head a bishop. For us it is as such, it's decided, it's written. This bishop, it is us who select three people from the Fraternity and we present to the pope so that he picks one of the three. Also it is expected that the other bishops of the Fraternity will be made auxiliary bishops in this Prelature. And all that exists now will be recognized by everyone. And the faithful, also! They will be in this prelature with the right to receive the sacraments and instructions from priests of the Fraternity. And also it will be possible to receive religious congregations, like in a diocese: Capuchins, Benedictines, and everyone else, Carmelites, everyone. This is a Christian reality that is not under the bishops. It's autonomous. So, really it's something very important.

But there is something more important than these, and that's doctrine, discipline, and to know that we are in conflict these fifty years to the cause of this council and the consequences of the Second Vatican Council. And we have always said, that if they want to recongize us, they need to accept us as we are. This is, without obligating us, to accept those things in the council that are bad. And here also there is something very important. Since, we can say for around two years, there has been a very important change not with all, but in the Congregation of the Faith. This Congregation of the Faith is the one that we speak with. And they tell us now "you aren't obligated to accept religious liberty, ecumenism, the new Mass, you can maintain your position, because these conciliar points aren't so important that those who reject them wouldn't be Catholic. One can disagree with the council and keep themselves as Catholics." This is very important, until now they always had said "you need to accept everything." And these last years, in the discussions we had with the bishops sent by Rome, they have said to us "these questions are open questions."

One must ask: why have they changed? I give my opinion. It appears to me the reason for this change in attitude comes from the gravity of the current situation in the Church. It's a contrast. So, they treat us as a better way because the Church goes badly. They see bad things in the Church. And they are forced to recognize that which we do and they don't like them, but it's not at the same level in that we defend ourselves as Catholic.

For example, the last time I met Cardinal Müller, who is the Prefect for the Commission of the Faith, he said to me "we, those of the commission of the Faith, we wait for you all to enter the Church, we are already part of the Church, we wait for those to help us combat the modernists." They are very bothered with all the heresies that go on now and they see us as help to combat these heresies. But this is only a congregation, but very important it's the Congregation of the Faith. But at the same time other Roman dicasteries think differently. For example the Congregation of Religious considers us as schismatics. And the pope says "no, they're Catholics." It's chaos.

Therefore there is a lot of contradiction and it can be seen, there is combat between the bishops, between Cardinals, all this is a new situation. We are accustomed to see us on one side and Rome on the other. We conservative Catholics, the others modernists. But now the situation changes. Rome isn't one, she's divided. And from one method that some see that things have gone too far. And they say "something must be done, there must be resistance."

And also at this moment, these past two years, I receive messages from bishops that tell me "don't change, don't change, resist!" Some dare to say this in public but there are others. I was visiting bishops and a certain number, really quite a lot that tell it to me, that they agree with us.

One wrote me "we are many in the hierarchy that think like you," speaking of religious liberty, ecumenism, of Nostra Aetate. I met an archbishop who said to me "I've discovered the traditional Mass with Pope Benedict, before that no, I was totally modern. But now I see that the new Mass has touch the substance of the rite."

Another archbishop said to me "I have a generation of priests that I've lost, I can't do anything. So I work in the formation of the new priests." And he has two principles, for theology, Saint Thomas, Saint Thomas' Summa. And for spirituality, the traditional Mass. These bishops want that their diocesan priests train the traditional Mass. They are few in comparison to others. But the number grows. And this is a thing that one cannot see but it exists.

There is a total work of renovation in the Church that has begun. It will take much time, clearly, they come from modernism and so have to change everything, this will take much time. Also there are others who speak, who resist, we aren't alone. But when I say this, it does not mean we go forward, we must go with much prudence and also assure our future to go on to prevent the entire possibility of a trap. And so we don't go running in this situation. This is how God works.

And here also there is a surprise that is the pope. When Pope Francis was elected, I was certain that he would excommunicate us. And I was preparing people for the hit. A pope who doesn't give care to doctrine, who looks at people, at men and who knew us in Argentina. And who has appreciated our work in Argentina. Thus he saw us with good disposition at the same time that he is against conservatism. It's like a contradiction. But I had already verified several times that yes, he has personally done things for us.

Cardinal Müller, at the beginning of the pontificate, presented the pope our excommunication. He said only the date and the signature are missing. And it is the pope that said,"no, because they're Catholics," it's really upside down. And it's seen here that Divine Providence directs these things, we look at these things very carefully and at the same time he (the pope) gives us the power to confess and also now permission to ordain our priests with asking permission from the bishops.

Also he has helped us in Argentina. Why does he do it? And why doesn't he act like the majority of people? The majority of people has principles, doctrine, and acts according to these principles, it's said that a man of principles, and this is true for the good ones, Catholics, and for communists, that they follow their communist ideology, and act according to the principles of communism. This pope doesn't act like this. This it's very difficult to understand what's happening. That which he acts upon is his relations with people. So if he likes a person he will do good to them. And thanks to our relations in Argentina, it continues like this. He has read twice Archbishop Lefebvre's book. And he told our father "they were hard with you."

One must understand this well, it's difficult, it's complicated. Such that at this moment that he has caused so much chaos in the Church, especially when he doesn't want to clarify moral questions, at the same time he continues doing well to us. It's clear that it's a delicate situation but one must take advantage of this to the max. This is, to use it to advance the cause of Tradition in the Church for the future.

Therefore, if we go and obtain or we don't recognition next, I don't know, to me it seems not, but the pope can make a surprise that appears impossible but he's already done that several times. So we must continue to pray very much, to ask our protector Mary Most Holy that she continues to lead us. But really what we said is stupendous, one can see that the Hand of God protects us through these most grave dangers. And if He has guided us until now, why think that now He lets us fall?

 

Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: Bishop Fellay on regularization
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2017, 01:50:12 PM »
Thank you for doing this!
Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side.  ~Treebeard, LOTR

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Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: Bishop Fellay on regularization
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2017, 01:50:38 PM »
Also, shouldn't the title read:
"Exclusive translation"?  ;)
Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

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Offline martin88nyc

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Re: Bishop Fellay on regularization
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2017, 02:12:30 PM »
French Bishop speaks Spanish in Poland. There is a very tiny colony of spaniards in Poland I believe.  ;D
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Offline ABlaine

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Re: Bishop Fellay on regularization
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2017, 02:18:22 PM »
Müller is a confusing guy.
 

Offline Sockpuppet

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Re: Bishop Fellay on regularization
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2017, 03:31:29 PM »
This is an incredible post.

Certainly sounds like a deal is all but done.

 

Offline Prayerful

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Re: Bishop Fellay on regularization
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2017, 05:12:23 PM »
Really interesting, thanks for it Bonaventure, particularly that the rumours had a slight core of truth, but was the search for little church or chapel not a world HQ. Deal looks close going on that, but nothing is definite.
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Offline ABlaine

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Re: Bishop Fellay on regularization
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2017, 06:32:14 PM »
Really interesting, thanks for it Bonaventure, particularly that the rumours had a slight core of truth, but was the search for little church or chapel not a world HQ. Deal looks close going on that, but nothing is definite.

I'd certainly hope that they stay in Switzerland. For one thing it's just a beautiful location. For another, it wonderfully encapsulates exactly what SSPX is and their history:

Thing started going poorly in Rome so they ran for the hills.
 
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Offline King Wenceslas

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Re: Bishop Fellay on regularization
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2017, 04:47:38 PM »
Quote
For example, the last time I met Cardinal Müller, who is the Prefect for the Commission of the Faith, he said to me "we, those of the commission of the Faith, we wait for you all to enter the Church, we are already part of the Church, we wait for those to help us combat the modernists." :crazy:
 

I've heard it all now, I am going home now to sleep this one off.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 04:50:54 PM by King Wenceslas »
 

Offline CMTV

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Re: Bishop Fellay on regularization
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2017, 06:43:53 PM »
Quote
For example, the last time I met Cardinal Müller, who is the Prefect for the Commission of the Faith, he said to me "we, those of the commission of the Faith, we wait for you all to enter the Church, we are already part of the Church, we wait for those to help us combat the modernists." :crazy:
 

I've heard it all now, I am going home now to sleep this one off.

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Offline Irishcyclist

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Re: Bishop Fellay on regularization
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2017, 08:39:48 PM »
Thread title should instead read "Bishop Fellay on Subsummation"

SSPX will be shredded by Rome, and sifted by Lucifer.

I pray that I'm wrong, but my gut tells me that in it's present incarnation Rome will soon discard the sheep's clothing.

Disease needs to be quarantined first so that it can't spread.

 
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Offline Bonaventure

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Re: Bishop Fellay on regularization
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2017, 10:53:43 PM »
SSPX will be shredded by Rome, and sifted by Lucifer.

I'd love to see the ecclesiological mental gymnastics you'd have to play to justify such rhetoric. It sounds like something straight from the mouth of Martin Luther, not a Catholic in Ireland.
 
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Offline bigbadtrad

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Re: Bishop Fellay on regularization
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2017, 04:08:14 AM »
Here's the history of how trad communities have been treated Bonaventure:

FSSP Protocol 1411:
http://www.latinmassmagazine.com/articles/articles_1999_fa_woods.html
You had to be around the priests and seminarians at the time to know how bad this really is.

Campos:
http://archives.sspx.org/bishop_de_castro_mayer/campos_accordance/bishop_rifan_concelebration.htm
I could also find quotes from Bishop Rifan who basically stops any traditional critique of the papacy for any reason.

Irish has a great point and Bishop Fellay says the same when he has called such a deal back in 2004 "suicide".
"God has proved his love to us by laying down his life for our sakes; we too must be ready to lay down our lives for the sake of our brethren." 1 John 3:16
 

Offline Bonaventure

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Re: Bishop Fellay on regularization
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2017, 09:50:57 AM »
I know how they were treated, but as Bishop Fellay said five years ago:

The description lacks a supernatural spirit. To read your letter, one seriously wonders if you still believe that the visible Church whose seat is at Rome is indeed the Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ, a Church horribly disfigured, to be sure, a planta pedis usque ad verticem capitis, but a Church that in spite of all still has as its head Our Lord Jesus Christ. One gets the impression that you have been so scandalized that you no longer accept that it can still be the true Church
 

Offline bigbadtrad

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Re: Bishop Fellay on regularization
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2017, 11:09:21 AM »
I know how they were treated, but as Bishop Fellay said five years ago:

The description lacks a supernatural spirit. ...

And he said 13 years ago:

On the other hand, you have those who say, “Look, Rome is opening its arms, Rome is saying, ‘Come in; we’ll give you an apostolic administration; we’ll give you whatever you want,’ so why are you so stand-offish?” I’ll tell you why, which is one of the purposes of this conference.

I’ll start with a crushing piece of recent news which illustrates so clearly what happens when you offer your finger…your hand…your arm to the present Rome. We have right in our faces a striking example of what happens to those who trust the present Rome. I speak of Campos.

When Campos was about to make the agreement with Rome, Bishop de Galarreta went to see Bishop Rangel and then I did, too. I told him, “Look at what they are doing to the Society of St. Peter.” He replied, “Well, what Rome offers us is so big that we cannot help but trust them. Of course, it’s a question of opinion; it’s a matter of prudence.” There was nothing more I could do. His thinking was that since Rome consented to grant them a bishop and their Tridentine life, Campos was being granted everything it wanted, so they wanted to sign an agreement.​...

So when Rome comes to us with a big smile, that is their ulterior motive. That is, we grant you a place, but you must stay very quiet there and not move. So we come to them and we say, “Well, we are sorry, but there is no zoo.” The Catholic Church is not a zoo. This comparison may show you how deep is the difference of vision…​"

I can find more quotes from the same person who called this suicide and a golden cage. He said it was "natural" for Rifan to say the Novus Ordo after the deal. He said it would destroy the Society. Again, this is the same man. If one follows this line of thinking you cannot blame such people for not changing their mind. In fact more blame could be associated to the person who blasted Campos for selling out, saying it was natural they said the Novus Ordo, and it was suicide.

I'm not saying Fellay is wrong for doing a deal with Rome, what I am defending are those people who think he's wrong based on his view the majority of his life as a priest and bishop.
"God has proved his love to us by laying down his life for our sakes; we too must be ready to lay down our lives for the sake of our brethren." 1 John 3:16
 
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