Genesis chapter 3

[Sempronius]

Hi guys, for of all i want to say that im glad to have come upon this forum. A lot of serious minded catholics. May God be with you.

I want to hear your opinions of chapter 3 in Genesis

This is what God says to Adam and Eve:

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.


My questions. How come we don't interpret this literally? How many of us men actually have an work that is physically tough? How many of us sweat?

Is God pleased when we try to allievate our burden? Don't you guys see a strong connection between feminism of the last 150-200 years and the inventions that men have invented in order to work less hard?

But maybe we shoudl interpret spiritually? But womens punishment is certainly literally, right? And look how women go against gods punishment - they want to take the lead in relationships and to be in control whereas the men are more and more effeminate.

That is one of the reasons why the Church is so weak - because it's members are drifting along with society and share the worlds anxiety of a tough, low paid job. But if i have the holy spirit within me then i could work in a mine cave for 12 hours a day and do that with a joyful heart, right?

If you care to fill in with your thoughts, bear in mind that we can't be guided by the church fathers and saints because they havent experienced our industrialism. ( if you would like to quote them )

[Jayne]

Hi.  Welcome to the forum. 

I remember living on a communal farm with a bunch of feminists and noticing how closely we followed traditional sex roles in spite of their ideological objections.  The men were more efficient at hard physical labour like chopping wood and the women did other jobs in order to free up the men to do these things.

There were quite a few things that I grew in appreciation of from living closer to the land.

[PerEvangelicaDicta]

bear in mind that we can't be guided by the church fathers and saints because they havent experienced our industrialism.

Are you Catholic?!

[Jayne]

bear in mind that we can't be guided by the church fathers and saints because they havent experienced our industrialism.

Are you Catholic?!

I just took that as meaning that they would not have given any explicit teachings on industrialism.  I did not understand this as denying the value of teaching from Church Fathers and Saints.

[Prayerful]

bear in mind that we can't be guided by the church fathers and saints because they havent experienced our industrialism.

Are you Catholic?!

I just took that as meaning that they would not have given any explicit teachings on industrialism.  I did not understand this as denying the value of teaching from Church Fathers and Saints.

The Church Fathers, or a good many of them lived in Roman times, the first mass society of big cities connected by roads and canals and sea lanes on which travelled huge grain hulks under state contract to supply Rome or Constantinople. Nothing matched it in all respects until the Industrial Revolution.

I have always taken Rerum Novarum of Leo XIII which searchingly interrogates the new industrial society, as something relevant to our lives where work is ongoing, not just seasonal or circumstantial. Rerum Novarum also shows with its quotes how the words of the Church Fathers can be brought to bear on the industrial and commercial society of our time.

[PerEvangelicaDicta]

bear in mind that we can't be guided by the church fathers and saints because they havent experienced our industrialism.

Are you Catholic?!

I just took that as meaning that they would not have given any explicit teachings on industrialism.  I did not understand this as denying the value of teaching from Church Fathers and Saints.

You're very generous Jayne!
Imho, I can't imagine a situation where their counsel and timeless teachings could not apply. 

Interesting anecdote you provided!  In analogy (and not to go off topic), I've noticed the same with homosexual couples, regardless of sex ... in every couple, each default to either male or female roles, confirming the natural law they protest. 

[Sempronius]

bear in mind that we can't be guided by the church fathers and saints because they havent experienced our industrialism.

Are you Catholic?!

I think jayne got my point. The church fathers  have not anticipated our progress in modern inventions. Is it okay to work in a office? How does that affect ones masculinity and our relationship with God? Who can answer that question?

[Jayne]

bear in mind that we can't be guided by the church fathers and saints because they havent experienced our industrialism.

Are you Catholic?!

I think jayne got my point. The church fathers  have not anticipated our progress in modern inventions. Is it okay to work in a office? Who can answer that question?

Even in those times, there were people who were not manual labourers.  St. Augustine, for example, was a lawyer.  He probably did not do sweaty work.

[Sempronius]

bear in mind that we can't be guided by the church fathers and saints because they havent experienced our industrialism.

Are you Catholic?!

I think jayne got my point. The church fathers  have not anticipated our progress in modern inventions. Is it okay to work in a office? Who can answer that question?

Even in those times, there were people who were not manual labourers.  St. Augustine, for example, was a lawyer.  He probably did not do sweaty work.

But he needed to defend the faith. In our times the faith is not attacked intellectually. So there is no need of philosphers actually. Augustine and Thomas have said it all.

[Jayne]

Even in those times, there were people who were not manual labourers.  St. Augustine, for example, was a lawyer.  He probably did not do sweaty work.

But he needed to defend the faith. In our times the faith is not attacked intellectually. So there is no need of philosphers actually. Augustine and Thomas has said it all.

I strongly disagree.  Our faith is attacked intellectually on a daily basis.  The mind is the primary focus of attack.  Liberal assumptions infect our schools, entertainment, government, and even, to some extent, the Church herself.

The ability to think clearly and critically is quite possibly more needed now than at any time in history.  Everyone should be familiar with, at the very least, the basics of philosphy.

[MundaCorMeum]

And fathers need to provide for their families. It's no longer feasible for all men to work the land anymore, no matter how much one might like that to be the case.  It's not intrinsically evil to have an office job.  Yes, it does cause somewhat of a detriment to the family dynamics for the husband to not be home for a large bulk of the time, but that is our cross to carry these days.  Humbly accepting that is a great way to strive for holiness.

[Kaesekopf]

Moved this to GCD as it didn't start off in a 'semi-scholarly' way and doesn't seem to progress that way.

[Kaesekopf]

What's the difference between a man using a donkey to plow his field and using a tractor?

[MundaCorMeum]

bear in mind that we can't be guided by the church fathers and saints because they havent experienced our industrialism.

Are you Catholic?!

I just took that as meaning that they would not have given any explicit teachings on industrialism.  I did not understand this as denying the value of teaching from Church Fathers and Saints.

You're very generous Jayne!
Imho, I can't imagine a situation where their counsel and timeless teachings could not apply. 

Interesting anecdote you provided!  In analogy (and not to go off topic), I've noticed the same with homosexual couples, regardless of sex ... in every couple, each default to either male or female roles, confirming the natural law they protest.

I've noticed the same. 

[PerEvangelicaDicta]

In our times the faith is not attacked intellectually. So there is no need of philosphers actually.

You're kidding, right? 
Please answer my question - are you Catholic? 
If so, maybe you could give us a little background on your Catholic education?  Not a personal insult, but an observation, you seem very badly catechized in the Faith.

(and you don't capitalize the G in God.  I've never known a Catholic to do that)