Author Topic: Francis criticizes "Traditionalist" seminarians  (Read 11010 times)

Offline peccator

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Francis criticizes "Traditionalist" seminarians
« on: February 20, 2015, 08:43:47 AM »
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2015/02/important-francis-says-reform-of-reform.html

IMPORTANT! Francis says "Reform of the Reform" is "mistaken". "Traditionalist" seminarians criticized, Pope says their "imbalances" are manifested in their celebration of the liturgy

Most media attention on Pope Francis' annual meeting with the clergy of Rome (held yesterday, February 19) has been focused on his remarks on married clergy. Of equal and possibly more immediate importance were his remarks on the liturgy, which have now been published by the ZENIT news agency.

The Pope could not have been any clearer in his view of the "Reform of the Reform". He speaks of the need for a more respectful ars celebrandi but anyone who has actually followed the liturgical debates of the last 20 years will know that this is not the same as the "Reform of the Reform". We sincerely hope that the "usual suspects" in the blogging world and in the social networks will neither ignore this talk completely, nor try to explain this away by constructing elaborate explanations as to why the Pope "really meant" something else, or that this whole thing is really a hoax, a fabrication, or whatever. Anything that will allow them to keep their heads in the sand!

Remarkably the Pope criticizes the "Reform of the Reform" outright but he did not say anything negative about Summorum Pontificum itself, quite the opposite. Nevertheless, his apparently condemning and contemptuous words about "traditionalist" diocesan seminarians cannot and should not be explained away as simply referring to the immoral behavior of some such seminarians -- behavior that can also be found, empirically much more frequently, among non-traditionalist seminarians. By specifically naming the ("Reform of the Reform"?) "liturgies" celebrated by "traditionalist" seminarians, once ordained, as the manifestation of their "moral and psychological" "imbalances", it is clear that the Pope's target is the traditional-friendly views on the sacred liturgy of many young priests and seminarians. By mentioning that the Congregation of Bishops is conducting interventions in this regard, the message is sent out loud and clear: bishops accept "traditionalist"-leaning seminarians at their peril. By declaring outright that moral and pyschological problems "happen often" in traditionalist "environments" a broad bush, apparently lacking in mercy, may now henceforth be used to tar these young men.

The relevent passage from the Zenit report is reproduced below, with our emphases.

However, some excerpts of the Pope's discourse were released thanks in part to several priests who spoke to the press following the meeting. Some even managed to record the Pope's words. In addition to several phrases reported by a few Italian news agencies this morning, the 78 year old Pontiff touched upon the theme, for example, on the "traditional rite" with which Benedict XVI granted to celebrate Mass. Through the Motu Propio Summorum Pontificum, published in 2007, the now Pope Emeritus allowed the possibility of celebrating the Mass according the liturgical books edited by John XXIII in 1962, notwithstanding that the "ordinary" form of celebration in the Catholic Church would always remain that established by Paul VI in 1970.

Pope Francis explained that this gesture by his predecessor, "a man of communion", was meant to offer "a courageous hand to Lefebvrians and traditionalists", as well as to those who wished to celebrate the Mass according to the ancient rites. The so-called "Tridentine" Mass the Pope said is an "extraordinary form of the Roman Rite", one that was approved following the Second Vatican Council. Thus, it is not deemed a distinct rite, but rather a "different form of the same right". (sic)

However, the Pope noted that there are priests and bishops who speak of a "reform of the reform." Some of them are "saints" and speak "in good faith." But this "is mistaken", the Holy Father said. He then referred to the case of some bishops who accepted "traditionalist" seminarians who were kicked out of other dioceses, without finding out information on them, because "they presented themselves very well, very devout." They were then ordained, but these were later revealed to have "psychological and moral problems."

It is not a practice, but it "happens often" in these environments, the Pope stressed, and to ordain these types of seminarians is like placing a "mortgage on the Church." The underlying problem is that some bishops are sometimes overwhelmed by "the need for new priests in the diocese." Therefore, an adequate discernment among candidates is not made, among whom some can hide certain "imbalances" that are then manifested in liturgies. In fact, the Congregation of Bishops the Pontiff went on to say had to intervene with three bishops on three of these cases, although they didn't occur in Italy.

During the beginning of his address, Francis, spoke on homiletics and the Ars celebrandi, calling on the priests to not fall into the temptation of wanting to be a "showman" on the pulpit, perhaps even by speaking in a "sophisticated manner" or "overt gestures."

However, priests shouldn't also be "boring" to the point that people "will go outside to smoke a cigarette" during the homily.
 

Offline Joshua119

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Re: Francis criticizes "Traditionalist" seminarians
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2015, 09:03:35 AM »
Quote
the Pope noted that there are priests and bishops who speak of a "reform of the reform." Some of them are "saints" and speak "in good faith." But this "is mistaken", the Holy Father said

Quote
Any revolution that takes place after the first revolution can only work against the first revolution.
                                                                                                  Adolf Hitler's response to the idea of a second, more thorough revolution.

Francis looks less and less like a Pope every day.
 

Offline Chestertonian

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Re: Francis criticizes "Traditionalist" seminarians
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2015, 09:21:20 AM »
way to alienate the future priests ofte next generation

who is getting the vocations?  how many men are signing up to be priests of the diocese of los Angeles

who wants to be a father fruitcake wrapped in a polyester tablecloth waving his hands around to trading my sorrows

if a man wants to be gay it's more than socially acceptable to just be gay he doesn't have to hide in the seminary to be gay
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Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: Francis criticizes "Traditionalist" seminarians
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2015, 09:38:10 AM »
However, the Pope noted that there are priests and bishops who speak of a "reform of the reform." Some of them are "saints" and speak "in good faith." But this "is mistaken", the Holy Father said. He then referred to the case of some bishops who accepted "traditionalist" seminarians who were kicked out of other dioceses, without finding out information on them, because "they presented themselves very well, very devout." They were then ordained, but these were later revealed to have "psychological and moral problems."

Frankly, what he's saying here is right.  Look at the (curious) case of Fr Urrutigoity, and his scandal and wrongdoings.

Of course, it's all in what Francis means.  However, here, if folks do have psychological and moral problems, they ought well not be ordained.
Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side.  ~Treebeard, LOTR

Jesus son of David, have mercy on me.
 

Offline Chestertonian

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Re: Francis criticizes "Traditionalist" seminarians
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2015, 10:07:34 AM »
was he kicked out of a diocese
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Offline Baldrick

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Re: Francis criticizes "Traditionalist" seminarians
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2015, 10:11:43 AM »
However, the Pope noted that there are priests and bishops who speak of a "reform of the reform." Some of them are "saints" and speak "in good faith." But this "is mistaken", the Holy Father said. He then referred to the case of some bishops who accepted "traditionalist" seminarians who were kicked out of other dioceses, without finding out information on them, because "they presented themselves very well, very devout." They were then ordained, but these were later revealed to have "psychological and moral problems."

Frankly, what he's saying here is right.  Look at the (curious) case of Fr Urrutigoity, and his scandal and wrongdoings.

Of course, it's all in what Francis means.  However, here, if folks do have psychological and moral problems, they ought well not be ordained.

I'm not even sure I can tease any sense out of that passage.  Maybe it's me.   :shrug:

It does sound a bit as if he's suggesting:  traditional priest = often have/hiding psychological problems behind all of that devoutness and strictness, etc.

But this is just his ongoing assault on the Church.  What about the priests who abused young men/boys sexually?  Were they not riddled with psychological and moral problems?  When did they enter seminary and how were they formed?  99% of them were V2 trained/formed, etc.  Why doesn't he decry their poor formation in modernist seminaries?  Or that so many homosexuals were ushered into the priesthood?   

I'd be willing to bet that the highest proportion of psychologically and morally disordered priests were V2 trained and formed.  And at proportions far higher than anytime in the past. 

 

Offline Innocent Smith

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Re: Francis criticizes "Traditionalist" seminarians
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2015, 10:14:44 AM »
if a man wants to be gay it's more than socially acceptable to just be gay he doesn't have to hide in the seminary to be gay

This, I think, is a very big idea. Traditionally, a man has two vocations available to him. Marriage or Holy Orders. It is ironic to think that the Catholic Church, has had what amounts to a hidden form of "Gay Marriage" for quite awhile, now hasn't it?

Homo marriage is a done deal as is the social acceptance of homosexuality. As tragic as those developments are, I say it is time to make lemonade out of these lemons. It is time to laicize all homosexual priests into the comfort and acceptance of this sick society. No Church strategy to combat Homo Marriage or the Sin of Sodom can ever be complete or even effective without its priests also being prohibited from entering into what I will now term Homo Vocations.   

Prior to VII and the Catholic Flight out of our urban neighborhoods, I could not imagine Father Fruitcake taking over a parish. It would not be tolerated. Some Joe and Wally Six-Packs would certainly on occasion ask such priests if they were fags. But that of course this is just mere conjecture on my part. It just could not have happened. There still would be plenty of vocations of normal men and far less recruitment into the homosexual "orientation". Remember, their numbers can only increase by recruitment. Nobody is born a homosexual.

Of course some homosexuals decided to hide in the clergy. And some also recognized a path to power in the Church since it could be a nice career and they were giving up nothing. And while it may appear that I am contradicting myself, I do believe there was a time when this was an anomaly. Over time, however, I think many priests were recruited as homosexuals in the confessional by other homosexual priests. I have even seen a priest admit to such a path in a subtle way in a sermon. I'm sure most listeners to that particular sermon missed the clues, but I heard him loud and clear.

Again, my main point is that you are correct. There is no need for homos to hide and society has dictated that there is no longer anything to be ashamed about except if you happen to be an intolerant Catholic. 
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Offline Maximilian

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Re: Francis criticizes "Traditionalist" seminarians
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2015, 10:40:04 AM »
However, the Pope noted that there are priests and bishops who speak of a "reform of the reform." Some of them are "saints" and speak "in good faith." But this "is mistaken", the Holy Father said. He then referred to the case of some bishops who accepted "traditionalist" seminarians who were kicked out of other dioceses, without finding out information on them, because "they presented themselves very well, very devout." They were then ordained, but these were later revealed to have "psychological and moral problems."

Frankly, what he's saying here is right.  Look at the (curious) case of Fr Urrutigoity, and his scandal and wrongdoings.

Of course, it's all in what Francis means.  However, here, if folks do have psychological and moral problems, they ought well not be ordained.

Actually, this is exactly what he means. It's obvious that he's referring to the Fr. Urrutigoity case. Francis removed the bishop in Paraguay, not far from Francis' home diocese of Buenos Aires. This is an unprecedented thing to do.

Now he is using that as a club to attack all of traditional Catholicism.

You reap what you sow. Too many people have been guilty of rash judgment and slander, and then they are shocked when the repercussions fall on themselves.
 

Offline Antoninus

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Re: Francis criticizes "Traditionalist" seminarians
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2015, 10:48:05 AM »
Rorate states that Pope Francis didn't say anything negative regarding Summorum Pontificum. I don't agree. He basically said it was issued as a hand out to trads to appease them. That is how I interpret this phrase: "meant to offer "a courageous hand to Lefebvrians and traditionalists", " First of all what are Lefebvrians? By labeling SSPX attendees or any trads Lefebvrians, it makes it seem like they are following some heresiarch like Arius, Nestorius, Luther, etc, whose sects were named after them.

The Archbishop was orthodox and any trads, SSPX or non-SSPX attending, are not Lefebvrians, they are Catholics.
 

Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: Francis criticizes "Traditionalist" seminarians
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2015, 10:54:09 AM »
Rorate states that Pope Francis didn't say anything negative regarding Summorum Pontificum. I don't agree. He basically said it was issued as a hand out to trads to appease them.


That is, at best, exactly what it was.

At worst it was designed to crush the last remnants of traditional Catholicism and integrate them into one of the NewChurch's side chapels.
Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

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Offline Chestertonian

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Re: Francis criticizes "Traditionalist" seminarians
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2015, 11:06:44 AM »
Rorate states that Pope Francis didn't say anything negative regarding Summorum Pontificum. I don't agree. He basically said it was issued as a hand out to trads to appease them.


That is, at best, exactly what it was.

At worst it was designed to crush the last remnants of traditional Catholicism and integrate them into one of the NewChurch's side chapels.

yeah... it's ok to say the tlm as long as it's not on the holiest day of the year
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Offline The Harlequin King

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Re: Francis criticizes "Traditionalist" seminarians
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2015, 11:29:27 AM »
Quote from: Innocent Smith
Prior to VII and the Catholic Flight out of our urban neighborhoods, I could not imagine Father Fruitcake taking over a parish. It would not be tolerated. Some Joe and Wally Six-Packs would certainly on occasion ask such priests if they were fags. But that of course this is just mere conjecture on my part. It just could not have happened. There still would be plenty of vocations of normal men and far less recruitment into the homosexual "orientation". Remember, their numbers can only increase by recruitment. Nobody is born a homosexual.

Better believe it, my friend.
 

Offline dymphnaw

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Re: Francis criticizes "Traditionalist" seminarians
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2015, 12:27:55 PM »
Our traditionalist seminarians are one of the few bright spots in the Church and THEY are the ones he's criticizing?  :'(
 

Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: Francis criticizes "Traditionalist" seminarians
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2015, 12:36:33 PM »
was he kicked out of a diocese

He's got a long and storied background, with a number of missteps by many authorities on the way.
Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

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Offline LausTibiChriste

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Re: Francis criticizes "Traditionalist" seminarians
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2015, 01:23:25 PM »
Is it me or is Francis, and the New Church as a whole, stepping up the BS lately? Perhaps some sort of tactic for October
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