See above. So where are the boundary lines in the married state? I've always (well, always tried atleast. I've failed plenty at living it out) taken an Augustian approach with it since becoming a traditional Catholic, but truth be told I have no idea what is ok or not so I just assume everything (atleast for me) is either venial or mortal. Being raised completely secular and nominally baptist really didn't do any good here lol. Here's some initial basic questions:
Would it be a mortal sin to kiss ones wife only for the pleasure of the kiss? What if it's making out? What if the kiss is meant as a prelude to the marital act? What if the marital act is pursued out of lustful and not procreative intent? Are caresses without lustful intent a mortal sin? With lustful intent? What about a grope? Prolonged grouping? I looked around online but all I found were conservative NO forums talking about unmarried people.
Quote from: Justin Martyr on October 22, 2020, 05:40:26 PM
See above. So where are the boundary lines in the married state? I've always (well, always tried atleast. I've failed plenty at living it out) taken an Augustian approach with it since becoming a traditional Catholic, but truth be told I have no idea what is ok or not so I just assume everything (atleast for me) is either venial or mortal. Being raised completely secular and nominally baptist really didn't do any good here lol. Here's some initial basic questions:
Would it be a mortal sin to kiss ones wife only for the pleasure of the kiss? What if it's making out? What if the kiss is meant as a prelude to the marital act? What if the marital act is pursued out of lustful and not procreative intent? Are caresses without lustful intent a mortal sin? With lustful intent? What about a grope? Prolonged grouping? I looked around online but all I found were conservative NO forums talking about unmarried people.
According to the majority opinion of moral theologians, pre-Vatican II, none of what you mentioned is venial or mortal sin.
Only anal(unanimously prohibited) or oral sex(some opinions), sex during menstruation, and ejaculation outside the vagina are considered mortal sins.
As for venial sins, opinions differ on what constitutes venial sin in the marital relationship.
Quote from: Sin of Adam on October 22, 2020, 06:03:33 PM
Quote from: Justin Martyr on October 22, 2020, 05:40:26 PM
See above. So where are the boundary lines in the married state? I've always (well, always tried atleast. I've failed plenty at living it out) taken an Augustian approach with it since becoming a traditional Catholic, but truth be told I have no idea what is ok or not so I just assume everything (atleast for me) is either venial or mortal. Being raised completely secular and nominally baptist really didn't do any good here lol. Here's some initial basic questions:
Would it be a mortal sin to kiss ones wife only for the pleasure of the kiss? What if it's making out? What if the kiss is meant as a prelude to the marital act? What if the marital act is pursued out of lustful and not procreative intent? Are caresses without lustful intent a mortal sin? With lustful intent? What about a grope? Prolonged grouping? I looked around online but all I found were conservative NO forums talking about unmarried people.
According to the majority opinion of moral theologians, pre-Vatican II, none of what you mentioned is venial or mortal sin.
Only anal(unanimously prohibited) or oral sex(some opinions), sex during menstruation, and ejaculation outside the vagina are considered mortal sins.
As for venial sins, opinions differ on what constitutes venial sin in the marital relationship.
Ahhh ok. Are any of the works of these moral theologians online? That would be very helpful. Also, what about this condemned error?
Pope Alexander VII, Various Errors on Moral Matters #40, September 24, 1665 and March 18, 1666: "It is a probable opinion which states that a kiss is only venial when performed for the sake of the carnal and sensible delight which arises from the kiss, if danger of further consent and pollution is excluded." – Condemned statement by Pope Alexander VII. (Denz. 1140)
.
Quote from: Justin Martyr on October 22, 2020, 06:23:34 PM
Quote from: Sin of Adam on October 22, 2020, 06:03:33 PM
Quote from: Justin Martyr on October 22, 2020, 05:40:26 PM
See above. So where are the boundary lines in the married state? I've always (well, always tried atleast. I've failed plenty at living it out) taken an Augustian approach with it since becoming a traditional Catholic, but truth be told I have no idea what is ok or not so I just assume everything (atleast for me) is either venial or mortal. Being raised completely secular and nominally baptist really didn't do any good here lol. Here's some initial basic questions:
Would it be a mortal sin to kiss ones wife only for the pleasure of the kiss? What if it's making out? What if the kiss is meant as a prelude to the marital act? What if the marital act is pursued out of lustful and not procreative intent? Are caresses without lustful intent a mortal sin? With lustful intent? What about a grope? Prolonged grouping? I looked around online but all I found were conservative NO forums talking about unmarried people.
According to the majority opinion of moral theologians, pre-Vatican II, none of what you mentioned is venial or mortal sin.
Only anal(unanimously prohibited) or oral sex(some opinions), sex during menstruation, and ejaculation outside the vagina are considered mortal sins.
As for venial sins, opinions differ on what constitutes venial sin in the marital relationship.
Ahhh ok. Are any of the works of these moral theologians online? That would be very helpful. Also, what about this condemned error?
Pope Alexander VII, Various Errors on Moral Matters #40, September 24, 1665 and March 18, 1666: "It is a probable opinion which states that a kiss is only venial when performed for the sake of the carnal and sensible delight which arises from the kiss, if danger of further consent and pollution is excluded." – Condemned statement by Pope Alexander VII. (Denz. 1140)
Pope Alexander VII's quote is in regards to the unmarried.
Moral Theology: A Complete Course Based on St. Thomas Aquinas and the Best Modern Authorities by John McHugh is excellent and available in the public domain.
This is hilarious.
You seriously need to read moral theology in order to unscrupulously get it on with your wife? :lol:
Quote from: dellery on October 22, 2020, 06:55:33 PM
This is hilarious.
You seriously need to read moral theology in order to unscrupulously get it on with your wife? :lol:
Getting it on is the easy part! It's all the stuff that doesn't result in getting it on that sets my scrupulosity off. Not that it's made any less humorous by that fact lol.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d22CiKMPpaY[/yt]
All those kisses and caresses outside the actual act are very important, its what lets your wife know you love her; besides women need the physicality without the act, much more than men, who most of the time are just plain horny to be frank, but that's how God made them. Could you imagine a marriage where any of this only occurs during the act, it'd be a cold, depressing one at that. As far as your concerns of kissing, etc, just for lust, as the priest told us during our marriage prep, how often really do you kiss one another for just pure lust and without some sort of feeling and love for the other?
Quote from: drummerboy on October 23, 2020, 10:53:50 AM...besides women need the physicality without the act, much more than men, who most of the time are just plain horny to be frank, but that's how God made them.
That's a typical misrepresentation of the sexual appetite of women, born out of the social necessity to protect their modesty.
In truth, there's no significant difference in the sexual appetite of both genders. Or the fact that men too need emotional and physical support and not just sex itself.
Both genders are much more similar than what they give each other credit for.
Quote from: Vetus Ordo on October 24, 2020, 05:20:16 PM
Quote from: drummerboy on October 23, 2020, 10:53:50 AM...besides women need the physicality without the act, much more than men, who most of the time are just plain horny to be frank, but that's how God made them.
That's a typical misrepresentation of the sexual appetite of women, born out of the social necessity to protect their modesty.
In truth, there's no significant difference in the sexual appetite of both genders. Or the fact that men too need emotional and physical support and not just sex itself.
Both genders are much more similar than what they give each other credit for.
sure.... ::)
Quote from: Justin Martyr on October 22, 2020, 05:40:26 PM
See above. So where are the boundary lines in the married state? I've always (well, always tried atleast. I've failed plenty at living it out) taken an Augustian approach with it since becoming a traditional Catholic, but truth be told I have no idea what is ok or not so I just assume everything (atleast for me) is either venial or mortal. Being raised completely secular and nominally baptist really didn't do any good here lol. Here's some initial basic questions:
Would it be a mortal sin to kiss ones wife only for the pleasure of the kiss? What if it's making out? What if the kiss is meant as a prelude to the marital act? What if the marital act is pursued out of lustful and not procreative intent? Are caresses without lustful intent a mortal sin? With lustful intent? What about a grope? Prolonged grouping? I looked around online but all I found were conservative NO forums talking about unmarried people.
I would recommend the following books to you if you want to have a deep understanding of these topics:
Catholic Sexual Ethics: A Summary, Explanation & Defense
Contemporary Moral Theology: Volume II Marriage Questions
If you want a simple answer I will quote A Treatise on Moral Theology by Plummer:
"Principle. The conjugal act is lawful and even meritorious
as often as it is not opposed to the benefit of offspring and conjugal fidelity."
"Circumstances of the conjugal act. Not only the conjugal act itself
but also touches and looks and all other acts are lawful between the married, provided that there is no proximate danger of pollution and the sole intention is not mere sexual pleasure. Therefore in ordinary circumstances the confessor should not interrogate married persons about these accompanying acts."
You might ask what does proximate mean
I will quote the Catholic encyclopedia
" proximate occasion (De poenit. disp. 14, n. 149) as one in which men of like calibre for the most part fall into mortal sin, or one in which experience points to the same result from the special weakness of a particular person."
So, if making out caused you in particular to spill the seed then it is a proximate occasion due to a certain kind of weakness, if this almost never happens then it is not proximate.
Certain specifics where suggested (such as menstration) on this thread as being mortal sins, this is also wrong but It requires a debate on moral theology that is already settled and one can read about in those books. It is true that at certain points in the history of the Church in various regions there where prohibitions due to a misunderstanding of the physical harm it could cause of women. I don't want to open up a debate that is settled, and one can read if one is inclined from authoritative authors.
Quote from: Sin of Adam on October 22, 2020, 06:03:33 PM
Quote from: Justin Martyr on October 22, 2020, 05:40:26 PM
See above. So where are the boundary lines in the married state? I've always (well, always tried atleast. I've failed plenty at living it out) taken an Augustian approach with it since becoming a traditional Catholic, but truth be told I have no idea what is ok or not so I just assume everything (atleast for me) is either venial or mortal. Being raised completely secular and nominally baptist really didn't do any good here lol. Here's some initial basic questions:
Would it be a mortal sin to kiss ones wife only for the pleasure of the kiss? What if it's making out? What if the kiss is meant as a prelude to the marital act? What if the marital act is pursued out of lustful and not procreative intent? Are caresses without lustful intent a mortal sin? With lustful intent? What about a grope? Prolonged grouping? I looked around online but all I found were conservative NO forums talking about unmarried people.
According to the majority opinion of moral theologians, pre-Vatican II, none of what you mentioned is venial or mortal sin.
Only anal(unanimously prohibited) or oral sex(some opinions), sex during menstruation, and ejaculation outside the vagina are considered mortal sins.
As for venial sins, opinions differ on what constitutes venial sin in the marital relationship.
I believe your reading of pre vatican II theologians on these topics is incomplete.
What was allowed was both more broad and more narrow depending on the time and place. These conversations even in the past where of a nature that it would best not be putting images in peoples heads.
Another (pre Vatican II) book I can recommend: 'Moral Theology' by Fr Heribert Jone OFM Cap, Mercier Press, Cork, 1948. Although primarily intended as a reference for confessors it is a solid guide and should be reassuring for the OP
Quote from: Justin Martyr on October 22, 2020, 05:40:26 PMWould it be a mortal sin to kiss ones wife only for the pleasure of the kiss? What if it's making out? What if the kiss is meant as a prelude to the marital act? What if the marital act is pursued out of lustful and not procreative intent? Are caresses without lustful intent a mortal sin? With lustful intent? What about a grope? Prolonged grouping? I looked around online but all I found were conservative NO forums talking about unmarried people.
Seriously, who really thinks about it?
When I kiss my wife, I kiss my wife. And if I want to have sex with her, the kiss will be lustful, what else?
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Justin,
Lust is not the same thing as sexual desire. Lust is disordered desire, thus:
Sexual desire/appetite, assented to, for someone not one's own spouse. That would include desire for consecrated individuals, by the way, but also --obviously-- any other non-spouse -- single or married.
Insistence on sexual acts not agreed to by one's spouse.
Other violations of the freedom of the spouse, such as force used. (Both spouses must accept reasonable requests to comply with "the marriage debt" -- a term I don't like, but it has do with justice and vows.) But the remedy for a refusal is not force or threat.
Sexual acts and mortally sinful thoughts (fantasies consented to), alone or with others, outside of the marital partnership, including any committed while the spouse had a prolonged recovery from an injury or operation, had a prolonged absence, etc.
Sexual acts with one's married partner that are compromised (not open to life) through contraception. (One is thus elevating pleasure over life, which is disordered.)
Pleasure is something God created for a reason, especially sexual pleasure, because without it, mankind would have died off eons ago due to insufficient reproduction. Pleasure with the physicality of the marriage experience is legitimate pleasure. Foreplay is only a problem inasmuch as it could be frustrating for one or both partners if not completed, so it's up to the couple to mutually figure that out. Many a baby or young toddler has interrupted the completion of "the marital act" (another term I hate) due to the young child's demands and needs. Yet no sin has been committed by the couple.
I made this thread many months ago when I was much, much more scrupulous than I am now (not saying I'm not still scrupulous, just not as bad as I was then!). The responses I got around that same time helped me understand where I was misjudging things. That said, I thank all of you for the more recent responses just the same!