Separate property in marriage?

[christulsa]

I apologize if I offended you, GoG, that was not my intention, and for suggesting your attitude about women—in the terms you used in this thread—might indicate some kind of psychological disorder.  Yes, I am not a mental health expert.  Sorry I was not able to help you better with your situation. 

[GiftOfGod]

It was an IF/THEN statement.  IF you meant what you said, THEN that suggests a disorder in your personality.  You'd agree if anyone else here made the same statement.

So do you lift?

No, that doesn't "suggest" a personality disorder. The APA's DSM states the following criteria for Antisocial PD:

A. There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:

(1) failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
(2) deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
(3) impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
(4) irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
(5) reckless disregard for safety of self or others
(6) consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations
(7) lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another

And Narcissistic Personality Disorder:

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

(2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

(3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

(4) requires excessive admiration

(5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations

(6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

(7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others

(8 ) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her

(9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

And why do you keep asking me if I lift weights? Combined with your out-of-the-blue accusation of homosexuality against me, I am starting to wonder about you (projection, perhaps?). But to answer your question: no I don't lift, I swim. That is completely irrelevant but I understand your desire to derail the thread.

[christulsa]

It was an IF/THEN statement.  IF you meant what you said, THEN that suggests a disorder in your personality.  You'd agree if anyone else here made the same statement.

So do you lift?

No, that doesn't "suggest" a personality disorder. The APA's DSM states the following criteria for Antisocial PD:

A. There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:

(1) failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
(2) deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
(3) impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
(4) irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
(5) reckless disregard for safety of self or others
(6) consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations
(7) lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another

And Narcissistic Personality Disorder:

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

(2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

(3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

(4) requires excessive admiration

(5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations

(6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

(7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others

(8 ) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her

(9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

And why do you keep asking me if I lift weights? Combined with your out-of-the-blue accusation of homosexuality against me, I am starting to wonder about you (projection, perhaps?). But to answer your question: no I don't lift, I swim. That is completely irrelevant but I understand your desire to derail the thread.

Again, I am sorry I offended you, and tried to diagnose you.  That was wrong.

I asked if you lift weights to try and break the ice with you, because I also lift weights.

I will stop posting in this thread.

[james03]

I don't know how it doesn't make sense to you. Secular dating isn't as marriage-oriented as trad dating (which some call "courtship"). And I'll have you know that it's women who talk about marriage first and most often, not in the sense of marrying me but just talking about the subject. Single trad women want to get married, James, as you probably know.

No, what doesn't make sense is someone who has been on tons of dates with women has enough experience not to talk about marriage on the third date.  He'd figure that out pretty quick after getting ghosted a few times.  I took you as a young man who doesn't have much experience.  Are you someone who was living sinfully, got used to hook up culture, and recently returned to the Faith or at least getting serious with it?  You don't have to air your dirty laundry, that is reserved for the confessional.

As far as the Trad lasses, if they ask about marriage (more likely they'll hint) you say you are serious about the Faith and are open to marriage, but you aren't going to rush things.  Then drop it.

[Jayne]

I have not had success in the area of courting. I believe it is due to the fact that I own a house and have a few hundred thousand in equity in it and I insist on it staying "sole and separate property" if we get married. The relationship always goes sour shortly after I tell the women my intentions regarding that. They presume that it will become theirs (community property) but I want to keep it separate. This has happened to 3 women so far and I don't know what to do. I thought about letting women assume that it would become community property until we get married but that wouldn't be honest.

Any advice?

I haven't been around much and managed to miss this when first posted.

Let's say for the sake of argument, that it is reasonable, prudent, and moral to keep your house as "sole and separate property" when you marry.  No matter how legitimate this decision is logically and objectively, you need to consider how women tend to process things.

Women typically use emotion over logic and take things personally.  When you tell a woman whom you are dating about your plan, she hears you saying that you don't trust her to stay married to you. While it may be perfectly logical to consider the statistically high risk of divorce, she takes it as a personal insult and feels hurt.  Or, she may take your attempt to protect yourself in the event of divorce as a sign that you are not committed to marriage and going into it expecting to divorce.

I think the vast majority of women would have these sorts of negative emotional reactions.  It is not, in most cases, because they are after your money.  Women, in general, want to feel loved and trusted and safe.  Hearing about your plan to protect yourself in the case of divorce makes them feel bad.

One solution is to keep dating until you find an extraordinary woman who will process your plan with logic rather than emotion.  The odds are against you finding such a woman.

Another solution is to wait to inform the woman of your plan until she has become so emotionally attached to you that she will stay with you in spite of how bad the plan makes her feel.  This will not necessarily work and, if it fails, it will be a painful break-up.

Another solution is to reconsider your plan.

[Philip G.]

Just because the church has not condemned some cultural practice, it does not mean that the church teaches it. 

Likewise, just because GiftofGod's avatar is a green-eyed red-headed warrior-king, it doesn't mean that he is jewish.

[GiftOfGod]

Just because the church has not condemned some cultural practice, it does not mean that the church teaches it. 

Strawman. Nobody said that the church teaches it.

[Philip G.]

Just because the church has not condemned some cultural practice, it does not mean that the church teaches it. 

Strawman. Nobody said that the church teaches it.

Strawchurch.  The church, governed by chaste celibate men, does not govern by way of negative law.  Look at the precepts of the church.  No wonder there is dispute over how many their are.  The only negative law regards marriage.  How ironic.

The church teaches marriage with one spouse.  That in itself implies the opposite of what plural marriage would imply.   For, how can a man with many wives claim to share all his estate?  Stop using a lacking condemnation as an argument for.

[Chestertonian]

I'm not a canon lawyer but don't pre-nups  invalidate the sacrament?

Also how far into the relationship are you mentioning your assets? 

[Philip G.]

Just because the church has not condemned some cultural practice, it does not mean that the church teaches it. 

Strawman. Nobody said that the church teaches it.

Are you talking about the same "nobody" that the democrats say is above the law?

[Angela]

I, as well as my husband, would advise our daughter against marrying such a man,  I'm sorry. This is very telling of the kind of marriage she'd have. I'm not surprised you're having troubles finding a wife.

[GiftOfGod]

I, as well as my husband, would advise our daughter against marrying such a man,  I'm sorry. This is very telling of the kind of marriage she'd have. I'm not surprised you're having troubles finding a wife.

Do you have any facts to back this up or are you basing it purely on feelings? Also, would you be comfortable if your daughter's husband insisted that she sign over her inheritance? It's the same legal concept. Inheritances are sole and separate unless transferred to community property.

Ah, forget it. You probably don't have two pennies to rub together.

[Jayne]

The more I think about it, the more I think that it is a reasonable idea.  I see no basis for thinking it would make a man a bad husband.  This way of arranging the property would not even affect the wife unless they got divorced.  In theory, a woman who has no intention of divorce should not care about it.

No-fault divorce is a fundamentally evil social institution.  It casts a shadow on every marriage, even those of traditional Catholics.  Every married person faces the knowledge that one's spouse can unilaterally end the marriage, no matter what one does.  Of course, we like to think that trads would not divorce, but we know it happens.

GoG has come up with a way to slightly mitigate this horrible evil.  It makes divorce less attractive to the wife (statistically the one more likely to file for divorce) so it ought to help the marriage.  I see no reason for the negative (and often unkind) responses that I am seeing to his idea.  Personally, I would have no problem with my daughter marrying a man who wanted to arrange his property this way.

[diaduit]

I, as well as my husband, would advise our daughter against marrying such a man,  I'm sorry. This is very telling of the kind of marriage she'd have. I'm not surprised you're having troubles finding a wife.

Do you have any facts to back this up or are you basing it purely on feelings? Also, would you be comfortable if your daughter's husband insisted that she sign over her inheritance? It's the same legal concept. Inheritances are sole and separate unless transferred to community property.

Ah, forget it. You probably don't have two pennies to rub together.
[/quote

If my daughter told her future husband that she was keeping her own inheritance married or not, I'd tell him to run and I'd kick her up the backside.  What a horrible scrooge mentality before marriage.

For me as a mother, its my instinct as well as my reason that tells me somethings off here and given some of your other posts, there is context and I think you are stingy.  Nothing wrong with that but you cannot be stingy with your wife and children.
Anyway I will say that we only have divorce in Ireland since 1995, my parents were married 52 years and my family and friends are all in long marriages bar one separation so my experience of divorce isn't as raw as it would be for you in the US .  I'd imagine there are some scars for most people in the US which would account for the cynicism versus my rose tinted glasses.

[christulsa]

I want to keep my house as a rental and in my name so that the future income and appreciation is mine. My future wife and I will buy another house together for us to live in. "Sole and separate property" is an old concept from Spain and is does not go against Catholicism, as prenuptial agreements do.

You would be denying your wife her right to her share of your income, GoG, especially unjust if she depends on you solely for her income while raising children and maintaining a home.  The two shall become one flesh.  A wife has a right to share in everything her husband earns.