"Limiting God", Michael Voris

[Miriam_M]

1) I don't disagree with Pope Benedict. I'm trying to emphasize the fact that, while you and I might be disgusted by homosexuality, it is playing into the hands of the LGBT to state that this is because we are straight rather than homosexual as if they are separate orientations. One is natural and is held by all men. Some men have the universal male orientation twisted. I'm also not inclined toward, say, murdering people, but it's not because I simply have a different orientation than murderers.

2) I don't know what false charity I have shown. All I've stated is that I disagree that Voris shouldn't be allowed to speak about the Faith in public because he used to be a sodomite.

Anything in order not to discuss the topic at hand --Voris "coming out". When you decide to get back on topic and dispense with the game-playing --that everybody can see might I add-- we can continue this conversation.

Awesome.  10-4.

[jmjZelie]

That excerpt from After the Ball was enlightening and disturbing.

So, if I understand dellery's point, Voris used jamming to manipulate our response to his revelations about his homosexual past. Have I got that right, dellery?

Rather than just come clean on his own or allow the leaks to happen and address them as needed, he used gay agenda tactics, which demonstrates that even if he left the lifestyle behind, he has no qualms about using their tactics, and therefore what he says about anything should be regarded with more suspicion.

This is the first I have ever heard about these tactics, but frankly, once I read it, it made sense. In fact, a lot of swift cultural changes of the past century made more sense. For example, going from the almost unanimous opposition to contraception in Christendom to its almost unanimous acceptance and even expectation of its use by all Christian couples within the space of a few decades is another example where these manipulation tactics were likely at play.

Dellery, I thank you for taking the time to share that excerpt with the forum. I have been following this thread silently up until now because I used to be a monthly subscriber to CMTV, until they started on the witch hunt tactics against Michael Matt and Christopher Ferrara and Loie Verrechio and then the SSPX in general. I had always been a bit disturbed by Voris's mannerisms in his Vortex videos and Mic'D up videos, but did enjoy the Baltimore Catechism series which I watched many times through. Now that he has revealed his homosexual lifestyle in his past (which I do believe he left behind) a lot of what I found disconcerting makes more sense. In fact, I always suspected he might have been a closet SSA man, but never did I suspect 15 years of living the gay life.

Anyway, I have begun to ramble a bit in my post. But I just really wanted to jump in to ask if I understand dellery' point correctly. Thanks again.

[Greg]

Here's why you need 10 years in hibernation after leaving a sodomite lifestyle.  No talking, no sharing, no preachin, no teachin, no retreats and no careers or vocations guidance.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/from-playboy-pornographer-to-christian-pastor-the-unlikely-story-of-donny-p

[jmjZelie]

Come to think of it, is using the phrase "limiting God" repeatedly a form of jamming? Especially when used against pious Catholics?

And a thought that occurred to me while digesting all this info this past week, was that surrounding himself with so many young men and being their mentor is rather suspicious behavior for someone with a sodomite past. Older male homosexuals are known for their tendency to choose young male lovers. They are attracted to their youth and that age range of 18-25 is what is considered ideal for those who stay away from overt pederasty.

So why was Voris setting himself up as a mentor for young men in that age range. It strikes me as totally blind to the nature of homosexual inclinations. And it appears, knowing now what Voris confessed to doing for 15 years of his adulthood, like a spiritual equivalent to the situation of an older gay successful male surrounding himself with his young "pupils". I believe he has left the sodomy in his past, but based upon his present actions, I do not believe that he has regained authentic masculinity or an awareness of his actual inclinations.

[Prayerful]

One thing I noticed was that some young staffers of CMTV were rocking the same Beleiber haircut as Voris. I thought at first one of them was his son, until I looked up Mr Voris.

[Yankee]

I somehow agree with both sides of this debate. I'm not offering my opinion, just posting this quote here for further discussion. 37 pages, sorry if it's already been posted:

"Sins which are punished by an extremely lengthy period of penalties are committed in an extremely short time (34); nor is there anyone who would suppose that the punishments should be as quickly over as the offenses were quickly performed, whether murder or adultery or sacrilege or any other crime whatsoever that is to be measured, not by how long it took to do it, but by the magnitude of its wickedness and impiety. (Augustine..."City of God" 21, 11)

[dellery]

That excerpt from After the Ball was enlightening and disturbing.

So, if I understand dellery's point, Voris used jamming to manipulate our response to his revelations about his homosexual past. Have I got that right, dellery?

Rather than just come clean on his own or allow the leaks to happen and address them as needed, he used gay agenda tactics, which demonstrates that even if he left the lifestyle behind, he has no qualms about using their tactics, and therefore what he says about anything should be regarded with more suspicion.

This is the first I have ever heard about these tactics, but frankly, once I read it, it made sense. In fact, a lot of swift cultural changes of the past century made more sense. For example, going from the almost unanimous opposition to contraception in Christendom to its almost unanimous acceptance and even expectation of its use by all Christian couples within the space of a few decades is another example where these manipulation tactics were likely at play.

Dellery, I thank you for taking the time to share that excerpt with the forum. I have been following this thread silently up until now because I used to be a monthly subscriber to CMTV, until they started on the witch hunt tactics against Michael Matt and Christopher Ferrara and Loie Verrechio and then the SSPX in general. I had always been a bit disturbed by Voris's mannerisms in his Vortex videos and Mic'D up videos, but did enjoy the Baltimore Catechism series which I watched many times through. Now that he has revealed his homosexual lifestyle in his past (which I do believe he left behind) a lot of what I found disconcerting makes more sense. In fact, I always suspected he might have been a closet SSA man, but never did I suspect 15 years of living the gay life.

Anyway, I have begun to ramble a bit in my post. But I just really wanted to jump in to ask if I understand dellery' point correctly. Thanks again.

Yes, you're absolutely right. There is the possibility this is all one big coincidence though, as highly unlikely as it seems. You're most welcome, and it's my pleasure to be able to share such writings. Rambling is also a good thing, as it gets wheels turning in people's heads, and tests ideas.

[dellery]

Come to think of it, is using the phrase "limiting God" repeatedly a form of jamming? Especially when used against pious Catholics?

And a thought that occurred to me while digesting all this info this past week, was that surrounding himself with so many young men and being their mentor is rather suspicious behavior for someone with a sodomite past. Older male homosexuals are known for their tendency to choose young male lovers. They are attracted to their youth and that age range of 18-25 is what is considered ideal for those who stay away from overt pederasty.

So why was Voris setting himself up as a mentor for young men in that age range. It strikes me as totally blind to the nature of homosexual inclinations. And it appears, knowing now what Voris confessed to doing for 15 years of his adulthood, like a spiritual equivalent to the situation of an older gay successful male surrounding himself with his young "pupils". I believe he has left the sodomy in his past, but based upon his present actions, I do not believe that he has regained authentic masculinity or an awareness of his actual inclinations.

I haven't even thought about how Jamming relates to his saying "limiting God", and will definitely take time to consider this. Good catch!

As to the rest of your post, this is exactly why it's an act of false-charity to confirm men like Voris in such apostolates, they need support and strength to reform their lives, not help to reform the lives of others.

[dellery]

After further consideration it dawned on me that Voris' sources being unnamed and anonymous open up the possibility that they may be using him via a reflexive control.  I'd like to go into more detail but have to leave my desk for the night.

For those who want to better understand RC.
https://www.rit.edu/~w-cmmc/literature/Thomas_2004.pdf
**The article pertains to Russia's use of Reflexive Control because they have perfected its praxis through the theories of Ivan Pavlov, but every body uses it, and it's a fundamental skill in politics.

Reflexive control is defined as a means of conveying to a partner or an opponent specially prepared information to incline him to voluntarily  make  the  predetermined  decision  desired  by  the  initiator  of  the action.

[Dominica]

Any of this look familiar?

[emphasis added]

From the point of view of evolution, prejudice is an alerting signal, warning tribal mammals that a potentially dangerous alien mammal is in the vicinity, and should be fought or fled. Alerting mechanisms respond to novelties in the environment, because novelties represent change from the usual, and are, therefore, potentially important.

One of  two things can happen: (1) If the alerting mechanism is very strongly activated, it will produce an unendurable emotional state, forcing the tribal mammal to fight the novelty or flee it. (2) If, however, the novelty is either low-grade, or simply odd without being threatening, the alerting mechanism will be mildly activated, producing an emotional state that, if other environmental circumstances militate against it, will be too weak to motivate any actual behavioral response.

...

Turning Associative Conditioning and Direct Emotional Modeling against themselves, we Jam by forging a fresh link between, on one hand, some part of the mechanism, and, on the other, pre-existing, external, opposed, and therefore incompatible emotional response. Ideally, the bigot being subjected to such counterconditioning will ultimately experience two emotional responses to the hated object, opposed and competing. The consequent internal confusion has two effects: first, it is unpleasant --we can call it 'emotional dissonance' after Festinger-- and will tend to result in an alteration of previous beliefs and feelings so as to resolve the internal conflict. Since the weaker of the clashing emotional associations is more likely to give way, we can achieve optimal results by linking the prejudicial response to a stronger and more fundamental structure of belief and emotion.

...

Desensitization aims at lowering the intensity of antigay emotional reactions to a level approximating sheer indifference; Jamming attempts to blockade or counteract the rewarding 'pride in prejudice' (peace, Jane Austen!) by attaching to homohatred a pre-existing, and punishing, sense of shame in being a bigot, a horse's ass, and a beater and a murderer. Both desensitization and Jamming, though extremely useful, are more preludes to our highest --though necessarily very long-range-- goal, which is Conversion.
... Put briefly, if Desensitization lets the watch run down, and Jamming throws sand in the works, Conversion reverses the spring so that the hands run backwards.
Conversion makes use of Associative Conditioning, much as Jamming does-- indeed, in practice the two processes overlap-- but far more ambitiously. In Conversion, the bigot, who holds a very negative stereotypic picture, is repeatedly exposed to literal picture/label pairs, in magazines, and on billboards and TV, of gays --explicitly labeled as such!-- who not only don't look like his picture of a homosexual, but are carefully slected to look either like the bigot an dhis friends, or like any one of his other stereotypes of all-right guys.

...

When a bigot is presented with an image of the sort of person whom he already has a positive stereotype, he experiences an involuntary rush of positive emotion, of good feeling; he's been conditioned to experience it. But, here, the good picture has a bad label --gay! The bigot will feel two incompatible emotions: a good response to the picture, a bad response to the label. At worst, the two will cancel one another, and we will have successfully Jammed, as above. At best, Associative Conditioning will, to however small and extent, transfer the positive emotion associated with the picture to the label itself, not immediately replacing the negative response, but definitely weakening it. In Conversion, we mimic the natural process of stereotype learning, with the following effect: we take the bigot's good feelings about all-right guys, and attach them to the label 'gay' either weakening or, eventually, replacing his bad feelings toward the label and the prior stereotype.

Taken from, After the Ball by Kirk and Madsen

Not a week goes by that I don't lament to my husband how manipulated and used we are on a daily basis - whether it is politics or religion.

Thank you for posting this, Dellery. 

[Gerard]

If I were to put on my "Dellery" hat, I would point out that those who are co-opting the place of the priest in determining the penance for a reformed homosexual are parroting the tactics of the modernists.

By making emotional appeals that basically amount to nothing more than disgust at the penitent's forgiven sins, those that are usurping the power of the priests to determine the penance are promoting the democratization of the Church. 

"Already we observe, Venerable Brethren, the introduction of that most pernicious doctrine which would make of the laity the factor of progress in the Church. Now it is by a species of covenant and compromise between these two forces of conservation and progress, that is to say between authority and individual consciences, that changes and advances take place. The individual consciences, or some of them, act on the collective conscience, which brings pressure to bear on the depositories of authority to make terms and to keep to them."

[nmoerbeek]

(1) There are gradations in perversity within disordered behavior of any kind.
(2) There are gradations in the level of moral severity as well.

But even that is not my argument.  Masturbation is private (unless one does it publicly), whereas sodomy -- hello -- involves a partner and thus makes one vulnerable to being "outed."  So no one would ever be outed (most likely) for masturbation; therefore it is not pertinent to this thread, which discusses MV and former sodomy, not former masturbation.

Neither is acceptable; both are gravely sinful.  Either may become habitual and thus poison the soul and mind even more by that fact, and make more permanent purity difficult.

MV is not seeking to become (it sounds to me) a crusader against the sod lifestyle.  However, since he has indeed repudiated the lifestyle, if he were to make that his personal Catholic mission, I would have much less problem with that than his continual ambivalence toward trads and his quasi-Ultramontanism.  Criticizing the Pope -- for which he reproaches trads -- is much less morally reprehensible than sodomy.  Criticizing the Pope is not One of the Four Sins.

Thank you for your thoughts, but all the thoughts that I have prepared have more or less been to counter other posters points.  I started my contributions to this thread because I felt St. Peter Damiens work was being misrepresented, and to provide some historical context on things like years of penance, and to impress upon people the broadness of what is considered  sodomy because it was directly being suggested that all sodomites withdraw from the apostolate.

I didn't misrepresent Peter Damien; I didn't discuss him, but thank you for providing context to your own statements.  Unfortunately, they were also fuel for those who prefer digression to discussion.

I also point out that nothing in Canon Law prevents Michael Voris from his work, and that it is frankly an exercise in hitting your fists against the table to insist he should not have the right to do so.  More importantly if you were to actually cause change here: that is require some approval from the Bishop for all teaching apostlates  almost all trad newspapers and similar apostolates would be shut down.

Please do not use second person (direct address) where not indicated.  I, first person, have not alleged whether anyone in any medium should have the canonical "right" to engage in a self-appointed apostolate.

Sorry my friend, it was sloppy of me to use the second person. 

[Miriam_M]

Please do not use second person (direct address) where not indicated.  I, first person, have not alleged whether anyone in any medium should have the canonical "right" to engage in a self-appointed apostolate.

Sorry my friend, it was sloppy of me to use the second person.

It's okay.   

[Non Nobis]

[emphasis added]

From the point of view of evolution, prejudice is an alerting signal, warning tribal mammals that a potentially dangerous alien mammal is in the vicinity, and should be fought or fled. Alerting mechanisms respond to novelties in the environment, because novelties represent change from the usual, and are, therefore, potentially important.

One of  two things can happen: (1) If the alerting mechanism is very strongly activated, it will produce an unendurable emotional state, forcing the tribal mammal to fight the novelty or flee it. (2) If, however, the novelty is either low-grade, or simply odd without being threatening, the alerting mechanism will be mildly activated, producing an emotional state that, if other environmental circumstances militate against it, will be too weak to motivate any actual behavioral response.

...

Turning Associative Conditioning and Direct Emotional Modeling against themselves, we Jam by forging a fresh link between, on one hand, some part of the mechanism, and, on the other, pre-existing, external, opposed, and therefore incompatible emotional response. Ideally, the bigot being subjected to such counterconditioning will ultimately experience two emotional responses to the hated object, opposed and competing. The consequent internal confusion has two effects: first, it is unpleasant --we can call it 'emotional dissonance' after Festinger-- and will tend to result in an alteration of previous beliefs and feelings so as to resolve the internal conflict. Since the weaker of the clashing emotional associations is more likely to give way, we can achieve optimal results by linking the prejudicial response to a stronger and more fundamental structure of belief and emotion.

...

Desensitization aims at lowering the intensity of antigay emotional reactions to a level approximating sheer indifference; Jamming attempts to blockade or counteract the rewarding 'pride in prejudice' (peace, Jane Austen!) by attaching to homohatred a pre-existing, and punishing, sense of shame in being a bigot, a horse's ass, and a beater and a murderer. Both desensitization and Jamming, though extremely useful, are more preludes to our highest --though necessarily very long-range-- goal, which is Conversion.
... Put briefly, if Desensitization lets the watch run down, and Jamming throws sand in the works, Conversion reverses the spring so that the hands run backwards.
Conversion makes use of Associative Conditioning, much as Jamming does-- indeed, in practice the two processes overlap-- but far more ambitiously. In Conversion, the bigot, who holds a very negative stereotypic picture, is repeatedly exposed to literal picture/label pairs, in magazines, and on billboards and TV, of gays --explicitly labeled as such!-- who not only don't look like his picture of a homosexual, but are carefully slected to look either like the bigot an dhis friends, or like any one of his other stereotypes of all-right guys.

...

When a bigot is presented with an image of the sort of person whom he already has a positive stereotype, he experiences an involuntary rush of positive emotion, of good feeling; he's been conditioned to experience it. But, here, the good picture has a bad label --gay! The bigot will feel two incompatible emotions: a good response to the picture, a bad response to the label. At worst, the two will cancel one another, and we will have successfully Jammed, as above. At best, Associative Conditioning will, to however small and extent, transfer the positive emotion associated with the picture to the label itself, not immediately replacing the negative response, but definitely weakening it. In Conversion, we mimic the natural process of stereotype learning, with the following effect: we take the bigot's good feelings about all-right guys, and attach them to the label 'gay' either weakening or, eventually, replacing his bad feelings toward the label and the prior stereotype.

Taken from, After the Ball by Kirk and Madsen

The full title of the book helps me to understand this post better:

After the Ball: How America Will Conquer Its Fear and Hatred of Gays in the 90's (Plume)

See http://www.amazon.com/After-Ball-America-Conquer-Hatred/dp/0452264987)
From a customer review:
"After the Ball appears to have been the seminal blueprint for the gay rights movement in the US."

Is this what is meant by the "playbook" that has been referred to?

(I haven't kept up with this thread so excuse me if this is old information)

[dellery]

Not a week goes by that I don't lament to my husband how manipulated and used we are on a daily basis - whether it is politics or religion.

Thank you for posting this, Dellery.

You're welcome, Dominica.