Abortion Question

[Philip G.]

Perhaps the point of this exercise is to expel the notion that prior to the 1960s and or the good ol days, abortion didn't exists.  It may very well have, it was just hidden in the heart of a woman.  Can catholics handle that? 

"It may very well have" What??? Are you kidding? Abortion in some form has existed since almost the dawn of time. Egyptian society had very skilled midwives who could nurture life and destroy it. They would surgically abort, and herbally abort. Throughout the history of the world you have always had these two options. Even today women use wild yam root to abort/birth control when they don't want they artificial hormones/side effects of the pill. Plenty of herbs will induce abortion. Surgical/manual abortion has also existed forever. When you consider that rape has existed for ever, and that prostitution is the "worlds oldest profession" you shouldn't be surprised that people came up with solutions for the "unwanted consequences" early on as well.
  The difference is that it wasn't as common as now, it was not considered normal by anyone, and it wasn't legal. Bringing abortion from the illicit shadows into the mainstream and christening it as a right, to be utilized regularly by all women, is new.

Thanks for dropping in out of the sky as some savior to this discussion.  For starters, I am not talking about surgical abortion.  Secondly, a lot of superstition surrounds the use of herbs and primitive culture in general.  In the garden of eden, God gave us even the green herb to consume.  What I am talking about is not superstitious at all.  It is quite objective.  A fetus needs nourishment.  Cut off that nourishment and the fetus will die.  You can legislate against the use of herbs by eradicating them from society as we currently do with many drugs/plants.  These are practical means of enforcement, and therefore meet my criteria for a meritorious law.  So, the use of herbs would not meet the criteria I am discussing.

You're welcome. LOL

You cannot eradicate herbs from society. If that was so, pot would not exist. Instead, while being eradicated from commercial enterprise, it found a very cozy place to grow in the woods, bathrooms, trailers, and basements all over the country. There never was an eradication. women could grow whatever they wanted, no matter what the law was.

"If you had faith lik to a grain of mustard seed, you might say to this mulberry tree, be thou rooted up, and be thou transplanted into the sea, and it would obey you."

[Philip G.]

This post is out-of-sync....

An intentional miscarriage by means of fasting is abortion, and murder in God's eyes. But I don't think Pro-lifers, Catholic or otherwise, are clamoring to actually do witch hunts on every miscarriage to ensure man's law traps and punishes those secret abortions that God's law will never miss. Man must work with what is visible to him and admitted to him. But man cannot declare such abortions as "legal", just sometimes unenforceable. A society that is Pro-life and enforces this where it can and teaches the value of all human life will discourage even secret abortions much more than  just focusing on poverty.

Non Nobis - your innocence is not off putting.  Just know, the enemy loves to play the victim. 

How many leaders have been consider the antichrist over the years?  Obviously, they were not the antichrist.  But, they were still suspected and in some cases privately accused.  The list would be too long.  How damaging would such suspicions be flipped towards women who had miscarriages?  You could never have such a law.  It would be abused, just as if there was a law saying "Wanted, Antichrist, description of, dead or alive".  It would create chaos, just as the witch hunt is chaos. 

Only once you accept that, can you begin to properly respond to the current abortion crisis.  Until then, only expect more defeats. 

[coffeeandcigarette]

Perhaps the point of this exercise is to expel the notion that prior to the 1960s and or the good ol days, abortion didn't exists.  It may very well have, it was just hidden in the heart of a woman.  Can catholics handle that? 

"It may very well have" What??? Are you kidding? Abortion in some form has existed since almost the dawn of time. Egyptian society had very skilled midwives who could nurture life and destroy it. They would surgically abort, and herbally abort. Throughout the history of the world you have always had these two options. Even today women use wild yam root to abort/birth control when they don't want they artificial hormones/side effects of the pill. Plenty of herbs will induce abortion. Surgical/manual abortion has also existed forever. When you consider that rape has existed for ever, and that prostitution is the "worlds oldest profession" you shouldn't be surprised that people came up with solutions for the "unwanted consequences" early on as well.
  The difference is that it wasn't as common as now, it was not considered normal by anyone, and it wasn't legal. Bringing abortion from the illicit shadows into the mainstream and christening it as a right, to be utilized regularly by all women, is new.

Thanks for dropping in out of the sky as some savior to this discussion.  For starters, I am not talking about surgical abortion.  Secondly, a lot of superstition surrounds the use of herbs and primitive culture in general.  In the garden of eden, God gave us even the green herb to consume.  What I am talking about is not superstitious at all.  It is quite objective.  A fetus needs nourishment.  Cut off that nourishment and the fetus will die.  You can legislate against the use of herbs by eradicating them from society as we currently do with many drugs/plants.  These are practical means of enforcement, and therefore meet my criteria for a meritorious law.  So, the use of herbs would not meet the criteria I am discussing.

You're welcome. LOL

You cannot eradicate herbs from society. If that was so, pot would not exist. Instead, while being eradicated from commercial enterprise, it found a very cozy place to grow in the woods, bathrooms, trailers, and basements all over the country. There never was an eradication. women could grow whatever they wanted, no matter what the law was.

"If you had faith lik to a grain of mustard seed, you might say to this mulberry tree, be thou rooted up, and be thou transplanted into the sea, and it would obey you."

What??

[Philip G.]

I think another factor that may be a stumbling block for many is the technological aspect.  Technology is not neutral.  Although many believe it is.  We have the abortion pill, and all this medical advancement that makes medical abortions so convenient for women, that when the going gets tough, the tough doesn't get going, and these pregnant women cave.  It is obvious to see that modern abortion is wrong and a sin, and even murder quite frankly.  But, on what grounds are we civilly objecting to it?  Are we objecting on principal, on point, or a combination of both?  If we are objecting solely on principal and seeking our laws to reflect that, which I believe the pro life movement for the most part is, then ultimately we are not going to be successful in my opinion given the circumstances. 

Another thing that I want to note, I would wager that those who are for the witch hunt, or in other terms for legislating directly against all forms of abortion full stop zero tolerance, are also the same people who are 100% pro death penalty(as if there are no other options).  The internal forum is not to be judged, but sometimes it is just too easy.  The alpha male gets to kill, but the omega female doesn't?  Good luck convincing woman of that one.

[coffeeandcigarette]

The alpha male gets to kill, but the omega female doesn't?  Good luck convincing woman of that one.

You sound like a whining feminist. The reason society, not the "alpha male" gets to choose to inflict the death penalty is to protect society from violent criminals. Protecting one's citizens is a fundamental objective for any state. A women is not protecting anyone, much less society at large by aborting her child. It is not the same thing at all.

[Philip G.]

The alpha male gets to kill, but the omega female doesn't?  Good luck convincing woman of that one.

You sound like a whining feminist. The reason society, not the "alpha male" gets to choose to inflict the death penalty is to protect society from violent criminals. Protecting one's citizens is a fundamental objective for any state. A women is not protecting anyone, much less society at large by aborting her child. It is not the same thing at all.

I didn't say you need to convince me of it.  I am a male, and a celibate one at that.  I am simply saying that the remedy cannot worse than the disease.  And, clearly, militant feminism is worse than women keeping secrets from society.  Just as capital punishment would be done in the town square for all the residents to see, what happens proportionally in the arena of woman, is not seen.  And, capital punishment is not an only option.  Exile is far superior in my opinion.

[james03]

What??

A leftist off his meds.

[Philip G.]

What??

A leftist off his meds.

You cannot argue with me, so you call me names. 

[Philip G.]

The alpha male gets to kill, but the omega female doesn't?  Good luck convincing woman of that one.

You sound like a whining feminist. The reason society, not the "alpha male" gets to choose to inflict the death penalty is to protect society from violent criminals. Protecting one's citizens is a fundamental objective for any state. A women is not protecting anyone, much less society at large by aborting her child. It is not the same thing at all.

I didn't say you need to convince me of it.  I am a male, and a celibate one at that.  I am simply saying that the remedy cannot worse than the disease.  And, clearly, militant feminism is worse than women keeping secrets from society.  Just as capital punishment would be done in the town square for all the residents to see, what happens proportionally in the arena of woman, is not seen.  And, capital punishment is not an only option.  Exile is far superior in my opinion.

We act shocked by the number of women who have abortions.  Let's reflect on how often men fantasize about capital punishment.  That might give us some perspective.  Ask men, what should we do with hillary?  Burn the witch!  What should we do with Biden?  Hang him!  What should we do with all the bankers?  Firing squad!  What should we do with israel?  Drown em in the sea!  What should we do with the muslims?  Nuke em!  If we had our way, there would be as many killings as there are abortions.  But, we are to imagine that all women are angels?  Catholics may be, but Catholicism is a religion, not a race, that does not evangelize with the edge of a sword.  If anyone is has left the straight and narrow, into false utopianism, it is not me. 

[Philip G.]

The same person that is going to end abortion the way modern pro lifers desire, is the same person who is going to be mummified upon departure from this life.  Look at Lenin mausoleum in russia, they still cannot escape the presence of that man.  It will be like the famous immovable ladder at the holy sepulcher that hasn't been moved for over 200 years for fear of disturbing the status quo.  If this sounds similar to the current disposition of our leaders regarding abortion, it is because it is no different.  Abortion is currently sacrosanct.  The leader will be treated no different.  Be careful what you wish for. 

[coffeeandcigarette]

The alpha male gets to kill, but the omega female doesn't?  Good luck convincing woman of that one.

You sound like a whining feminist. The reason society, not the "alpha male" gets to choose to inflict the death penalty is to protect society from violent criminals. Protecting one's citizens is a fundamental objective for any state. A women is not protecting anyone, much less society at large by aborting her child. It is not the same thing at all.

I didn't say you need to convince me of it.  I am a male, and a celibate one at that.  I am simply saying that the remedy cannot worse than the disease.  And, clearly, militant feminism is worse than women keeping secrets from society.  Just as capital punishment would be done in the town square for all the residents to see, what happens proportionally in the arena of woman, is not seen.  And, capital punishment is not an only option.  Exile is far superior in my opinion.

We act shocked by the number of women who have abortions.  Let's reflect on how often men fantasize about capital punishment.  That might give us some perspective.  Ask men, what should we do with hillary?  Burn the witch!  What should we do with Biden?  Hang him!  What should we do with all the bankers?  Firing squad!  What should we do with israel?  Drown em in the sea!  What should we do with the muslims?  Nuke em!  If we had our way, there would be as many killings as there are abortions.  But, we are to imagine that all women are angels?  Catholics may be, but Catholicism is a religion, not a race, that does not evangelize with the edge of a sword.  If anyone is has left the straight and narrow, into false utopianism, it is not me.

Why do you keep equating men who have an overdeveloped sense of justice toward wanton criminals and pagans, with women who want to kill completely innocent babies for their own benefit? This is not a useful comparison in any way.

[james03]

I think another factor that may be a stumbling block for many me is the technological aspect.  Technology is not neutral.

Whoever spotted the habit of the leftist to Project was a genius.  It's like 100% accurate.

The above quote now makes sense.  Leftists are obsessed with the utopia.

[Philip G.]

The alpha male gets to kill, but the omega female doesn't?  Good luck convincing woman of that one.

You sound like a whining feminist. The reason society, not the "alpha male" gets to choose to inflict the death penalty is to protect society from violent criminals. Protecting one's citizens is a fundamental objective for any state. A women is not protecting anyone, much less society at large by aborting her child. It is not the same thing at all.

I didn't say you need to convince me of it.  I am a male, and a celibate one at that.  I am simply saying that the remedy cannot worse than the disease.  And, clearly, militant feminism is worse than women keeping secrets from society.  Just as capital punishment would be done in the town square for all the residents to see, what happens proportionally in the arena of woman, is not seen.  And, capital punishment is not an only option.  Exile is far superior in my opinion.

We act shocked by the number of women who have abortions.  Let's reflect on how often men fantasize about capital punishment.  That might give us some perspective.  Ask men, what should we do with hillary?  Burn the witch!  What should we do with Biden?  Hang him!  What should we do with all the bankers?  Firing squad!  What should we do with israel?  Drown em in the sea!  What should we do with the muslims?  Nuke em!  If we had our way, there would be as many killings as there are abortions.  But, we are to imagine that all women are angels?  Catholics may be, but Catholicism is a religion, not a race, that does not evangelize with the edge of a sword.  If anyone is has left the straight and narrow, into false utopianism, it is not me.

Why do you keep equating men who have an overdeveloped sense of justice toward wanton criminals and pagans, with women who want to kill completely innocent babies for their own benefit? This is not a useful comparison in any way.

I do for the same reason you(not necessarily you in particular) keep equating the law with belief.  Society is divided.  This is characteristic of empire.  And, your proposal doesn't depart from that.  The ideal is the ideal whether we like it or not.  We can either love it, or hate it.  We are all at its mercy.  And, there is only one direction from which to approach it in an loving manner.  Most have their backs turned.

[Philip G.]

I think another factor that may be a stumbling block for many me is the technological aspect.  Technology is not neutral.

Whoever spotted the habit of the leftist to Project was a genius.  It's like 100% accurate.

The above quote now makes sense.  Leftists are obsessed with the utopia.

You are having difficulty processing things.  If the technological aspect was my stumbling block, then according to my argument, I would have to have no legal objection to abortion on demand, and the pill, and the like.  If you are insinuating that, I will be glad to report your post to the moderator.  You can quit it with the leftist smear as well.  Who did you vote for these last two elections?   That's right.

[james03]

I speak of  ideals because there is criticism, warranted or not, that the only qualifier of modern christian orthodoxy is whether one is 100% pro life or not.  And, 100% pro life means that abortion is outlawed, and therefore doesn't occur in society.

I'll say it again because you fail to engage on this issue.  No one is under the delusion that if you outlaw abortion you eliminate it.  It seems you are stuck on this.  You outlaw it because it is murder.  And women will do it and get away with it.  We'll leave that up to God.  The ones that are caught will be tried and punished if convicted.

100% prolife means abortion is outlawed.  It does not mean you expect it to not occur.  And being 100% prolife is necessary, but not sufficient to be a Catholic.