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#1

The Sedevacantist Thesis / Re: Sedevacantists and Akita

Last post by Baylee - Today at 10:47:19 AM

To "excommunicate" people for attending "Una Cum" masses is way beyond the powers of any priest or even bishop; especially non-residential bishops who have no ordinary jurisdiction. The Church has not made any official declaration on the status of the Conciliar Popes, either for or against; even on the "intrinsic" validity of the new sacramental rites; so the views of trads on this subject, remain on the level of "opinions"; and have no juridic effect on the Catholic faithful.
So one can regard such "excos" as totally worthless.

And no one here said differently.  But some folks refuse to even discuss or consider that the opinion that the NO rites are doubtful could be......CORRECT! It's the equivalent of sticking one's fingers in their ears and saying "lalalalalalala!"

[even intellectually.]

#2

The Sedevacantist Thesis / Re: Sedevacantists and Akita

Last post by Baylee - Today at 10:40:38 AM

(1) Lay people have zero responsibility to solve the crisis in Rome even intellectually.
(2) Lay people have no responsibility to resolve the crisis on a personal level, either.  If it is God's judgment, at my death, that I should have "made a decision" about PF or whoever, He will surprise me with that news at that time, and until then, no one is authorized to tell any other Catholic about a manufactured moral responsibility to "figure it all out."

We are responsible to comply with divine positive law and the precepts of the Church whether or not PF is doing so and whether or not he imagines (wrongly) that he is at liberty to change divine law, such as the Sixth Commandment -- and whether or not we make a public statement about what he is doing and the state of his office and his soul.

The people who may very well be held responsible are the clerical personnel involved in a refusal to lead and a refusal to clarify -- a refusal to complete the duties of their own ecclesiastical state in life, which are not a lay person's state in life. We don't have to internalize other people's responsibilities to act on heresy, let alone take the blame for the sins of confused hierarchy or outright heretics. We have plenty of our own sins, and we will be responsible only for those.

Completely agree with Bonaventure that only God can solve this, and even most N.O. priests at this time, not to mention all trad priests I'm acquainted with, are convinced that both the Church and the world are too far gone at this point for either to repair itself without divine intervention.

Lay people do have an obligation to know the truth so they can act on it accordingly.

Let's say that sedevacantists are right for this argument.
Bishops consecrated in the rite of Paul VI are not valid and therefore, none of the priests they've ordained are valid.

Therefore, none of the priests in question are actual priests and none of their sacraments are valid. Lay people have an obligation to receive valid sacraments. If they are going to these lay priests, they are not receiving valid sacraments and are therefore, in unknowing disobedience to God. If the above scenario is true, would you agree that lay people do have an obligation to make a change to ensure they receive valid sacraments?

(I separated out the non sequiturs for emphasis.)  There would be no situation that the pre-V2 Church has ever proposed to the faithful that would entail lay people making a judgment about the validity of a sacramental rite -- for any of the 7 sacraments. And this is one of the root problems with SV'ism in principle. Again, lay people have zip authority to make dogmatic pronouncements outside of the deposit of faith and outside of confirming what the pre-V2 Church has pronounced. 

A rite is a change in certain externals of form; it is not a change in doctrine.  What priests are allowed to say -- and have said -- are observations or perceptions of the efficacy of certain rites.  Thus, Fr. Ripperger has weighed in on the superior form of the traditional rite of baptism, largely because of the extensive exorcisms and the general thoroughness of it.  Ditto for him and other priests when it comes to Extreme Unction vs. the (new) Anointing of the Sick.

Superiority of form is a separate matter than validity.  Validity for a sacrament consists of essential form and essential matter.  Thus, we must hear, "I absolve you..in the name of...[etc.]" at the end of our Confession, and we have a right to insist on having our real sins heard and not hear an abusive priest dismiss our recital "because one sin is enough." Maybe the second sin is a mortal one; how would he know that?  I mean technically, the matter is our sorrow/contrition, but he needs to know: contrition for what?  Or he will not be able to act as the judge in persona Christi.

Many modern priests use a variety of "rites" for Confession, and we've all been there:  more often than not, such confessions are highly disappointing, to say the least. But if they meet the bare minimum requirements for matter and form (including our part), then the sacrament has been administered and received, albeit not ideally or as profoundly as possible.

But because the Sacrament of Penance seems to be subject to the most regular abuse by diocesan priests, I do avoid their confessionals if possible.  That said, the most powerful confessional experience I ever had was to a very holy diocesan-ordained priest whose adult Masses and children's Masses I attended regularly when my children were little.  I also studied with him in theology school, which was how I got to know him. In confession, he read my soul.  He was the only priest to have done that, and I have never had that experience before or after that.  When a priest reads your soul, you know without question that Jesus Christ is present in that moment...unless you're like the ancient Romans and believe superstitiously in divination. Or -- and I know this is a sensitive word but it applies in this case -- if one believes that one has Gnostic knowledge about the efficacy of newer sacramental rites that the rest of us lack.

There have been a few occasions in which I have received more sacramental graces at a very reverent N.O.M. Holy Communion (in the past) than at a TLM.  The only difference in those particular cases?  My disposition.

These differences and exceptions are not meant to blur the clear differences between old and new rites.  I offer them in sincere disclosure but also to illustrate how important it is not to arrogate to ourselves judgments that only the Church can make about validity of sacraments.  We should always seek the highest rite we can for the fullness of graces available -- contingent upon our disposition - but validity itself is an absolute quality, not a matter of degree. A rite is valid or invalid, not valid or "questionable."  Form and matter.

Fr. Ripperger, who quite prefers the TLM and I believe says it exclusively -- has no patience with assertions that hosts consecrated by diocesan priests are "not really consecrated."  He says that the proof that these hosts bear the divinity of Christ is that the demons respond exactly the same to hosts consecrated by any Catholic priest.  He has seen the syndrome many times and has watched the demons respond no differently to either.

Pope Pius XII infallibly declared what is required in the sacramental form for the consecration of a bishop. Paul VI changed the form. His new form does not match what Pius XII declared is required for validity. It matches the Anglican form which Pope Leo XIII declared to be utterly null and void. Therefore it's reasonable to assert that bishops consecrated in the new form are not valid the same as a baptism is not valid if the priest says, "We baptize" instead of "I baptize".

Laity or vagi clergy can assert whatever they like, but until and unless the Church definitively settles the matter, any such assertion will remain simply a private opinion.

I like to remind myself that, the same clergy that are the biggest asserters that the 1968 NREC is "invalid" and the 1968 NRPO is "doubtful" also promulgated the idea that Michael Schiavo had a "God given right" to murder Terri Schiavo (Cekada), and the Prefect of Sanborn's seminary (Despósito), has stated that one "una cum Mass" is more offensive to Almighty God than every single abortion in the history of mankind. (Source: https://x.com/frdesposito/status/434837570053087232?s=46)

Funnily enough, that would mean that the una cum ordination rite and subsequent Mass of his superior and the man who ordained him (Sanborn) was also more offensive to Almighty God, than aforementioned abortions.

Novus Ordo sacraments either are valid or they aren't. It doesn't matter if the hierarchy declares anything or not. If the solemn, holy and orthodox priest offers the sacrifice of the Mass, if he wasn't ordained by a valid bishop, then what he's distributing to his congregation is just bread.  Therefore, the laity should try to be informed so they can know if they're receiving the body and blood of Jesus or just bread.

Sure, and the same priests who have prominently made the argument that declares that they are "invalid" or "dubious" have also declared that attending an "una cum Mass" is a "mortal sin," that a single una cum Mass is more offensive to almighty God than every single abortion ever performed in history, and would deny the sacraments, including communion and absolution, to someone who attended an SSPX Mass, Eastern Rite Divine Liturgy, etc. if said "una cum."

These are the men that @Baylee and @awkward customer are valiantly defending and championing in this thread.

I wonder if these individuals attend an "una cum" Mass, whether SSPX or otherwise. Even if on vacation, for example.

If they did, the late Fr. Cekada would refuse them communion and absolution, as would Bishop Dolan, and as will Bishop Sanborn.

It all goes back to my original point that these are not infallible, authoritative arbiters of the faith. Rather, vagi (wandering), autocephalus clergy, answerable to only themselves, who have their own agendas.

So yes, one could be worshipping bread or not; these men would also argue that one who does not go to their approved list of Masses are also committing "mortal sins."

Their unofficial mouthpiece, True Restoration/Heiner, is now warning people to stay away from the CMRI, and these same people cannot get on the same page about baptisms. Sanborn/MHT/RCI have declared that, unless one has positive proof via video/photos/testimony, all "NO Baptisms" performed after January 1, 1990, are dubious and need to be conditionally performed, before one can receive sacraments from them.

If that is the lot one wishes to associate with, be my guest.

I've got nothing more to say or add to this conversation.

I see you keep focusing on certain sede clergy and ignoring that they aren't the only clergy (sede or non-sede) to assert the NO Ordinations and Consecrations are at least doubtful. 

I'm not surprised you have nothing else to add here. You probably shouldn't since you only seem capable of adding emotional comments to the thread.

#3

The Coffee Pot / Re: interesting purchase you m...

Last post by Greg - Today at 10:35:51 AM

Tarmac sealant and colouring.

Lot of prep work but looks fantastic afterwards.  Almost as good as new tarmac

#4

General Catholic Discussion / Re: Mgr. Hounder RIP

Last post by Bonaventure - Today at 10:15:16 AM

RIP

#5

General News and Discussion / Re: Economic Myths on High Pri...

Last post by Michael Wilson - Today at 10:10:52 AM

This is mainly due to socialist "pension" programs.  Basically the government points a gun at you and steals your money to pay "pensions", but promises you that in the future they'll point a gun at your kids and grandkids and steal their money to pay your "pension" (with 10% to the big guy).

In a free market pension like Chile, workers accumulate productive capital over time.  When they retire, they are paid from the return on the capital such that real production is paid to the pensioner.  Arguably a slowly shrinking population in such a country would INCREASE the wealth of the pensioners as they would own a greater share of productive capital.

In a free market, population rates are meaningless.  The best performing asset over the past 10 years are pipeline stocks (technically MLPs).  They deliver diesel and gasoline at about the same rate, and payout their profits to holders of the company.  They are essentially zero growth companies.

It appears to me that population rates may be meaningless in the short term, but not in the long term; the lack of young people i.e. Those under 20, means that the largest sector of consumers per capita will no longer be powering consumer growth; the next set is from 20 to 40; as people get older they consume less of everything; a retiree with a large pension, hardly spends any of it; their homes are paid off; they don't drive to work any more, so their automobiles are not replaced; they don't wear out their clothes; eat as much; go to movies etc. etc. How do you replace such growth? 
Japan is one example very stagnant growth since the 1990's; China, who's population is actually on the verge of collapse will be the real life example, as they will not have enough young people entering the workforce, to replace those that are retiring. 

#6

General Catholic Discussion / Re: Fr Shannon Collins suspend...

Last post by crossingtherubicon - Today at 10:03:52 AM

Here is one of the brightest moments from Fr Shannon, hope he gets back on his feet here, and maybe a break renews him to climb higher than before:

Parts 1-6 of the Ascending Gods Mountain Lenten Mission

https://youtu.be/AXsta-3hGcs?feature=shared

https://youtu.be/kL-bI-gEJTg?feature=shared

https://youtu.be/SexntlXGLP0?feature=shared

https://youtu.be/bBHLgWTO_wg?feature=shared

https://youtu.be/TpSIJX4W_bc?feature=shared

https://youtu.be/dfi2X7HtQsA?feature=shared

#7

The Bookstore / Re: RULE/MARTYROLOGY THREAD

Last post by OmniaInstaurareInChristo - Today at 09:53:02 AM

The reading appointed from the Rule of St. Benedict for April 19:

CHAPTER LXIII
Of the Order of the Community (cont.)

Let the younger brethren, then, reverence their elders, and the elder love the younger. In calling each other by name, let none address another by his simple name; but let the elders call the younger brethren Brothers, and the younger call their elders Fathers,* by which is implied the reverence due to a father. But let the Abbot, since he is considered to represent the person of Christ, be called Lord and Abbot, not that he hath taken it upon himself, but out of reverence and love for Christ. Let him be mindful of this, and shew himself to be worthy of such an honour. Wherever the brethren meet one another, let the younger ask a blessing from the elder. And when the elder passeth by, let the younger rise, and give place to him to sit down; nor let the younger presume to sit with him, unless the elder bid him, that it may come to pass as it is written: "In honour preferring one another." Let young children and boys take their places in the Oratory, or at table, with all due discipline. In other places also, wherever they may be, let them be under proper care and discipline, until they come to the age of understanding.


Martyrology-April 20th
Roman Martyrology-April 20th-on this date in various years-

At Rome, the holy martyrs Sulpicius and Servilian, who were converted to the faith of Christ by the speeches and the miracles of the holy virgin Domitilla. Because they refused to sacrifice to the idols, they were beheaded by Anian, prefect of the city, in the persecution of Trajan.

At Nicomedia, the holy martyrs Victor, Zoticus, Zeno, Acindynus, Caesareus, Severian, Chrysophorus, Theonas, and Antonine. They were converted to Christ by the miracles and the martyrdom of St. George, and because of their own dauntless confession of the faith, they were tortured in various ways under the Emperor Diocletian, and thus completed their martyrdom.

At Tomis in Scythia, Bishop St. Theotimus, whose great sanctity and miracles procured him the respect even of unbelieving barbarians.

At Embrun in France, St. Marcellin, first bishop of that city. By divine inspiration he came from Africa with his holy companions Vincent and Domninus, and converted the greater portion of the inhabitants of the Maritime Alps by his preaching, and by the wonderful prodigies which he still continues to work.

At Auxerre, the priest St. Marcian.

At Constantinople, St. Theodore, confessor, surnamed Trichinas, from the rough garment of hair which he wore. He was renowned for many miracles, but especially for his power over the demons. From his body issues a liquid that imparts health to the sick.

At Monte Pulciano, St. Agnes, a virgin of the Order of St. Dominic, celebrated for her miracles.

And elsewhere in divers places, many other holy martyrs, confessors, and holy virgins.
R. Thanks be to God.

#8

The Sedevacantist Thesis / Re: Sedevacantists and Akita

Last post by Michael Wilson - Today at 09:50:54 AM

To "excommunicate" people for attending "Una Cum" masses is way beyond the powers of any priest or even bishop; especially non-residential bishops who have no ordinary jurisdiction. The Church has not made any official declaration on the status of the Conciliar Popes, either for or against; even on the "intrinsic" validity of the new sacramental rites; so the views of trads on this subject, remain on the level of "opinions"; and have no juridic effect on the Catholic faithful.
So one can regard such "excos" as totally worthless.

#9

The Sedevacantist Thesis / Re: Sedevacantists and Akita

Last post by awkward customer - Today at 09:50:37 AM

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Warmbier

And just a reminder that feeding tubes are such ordinary means these days that even the North Korean Prison system provides them to prisoners when necessary. It was only when he was returned to America that Otto Warmbier was promptly killed by his own parents.

But are feeding tubes Ordinary or Extraordinary treatment according to the Church?  This is the crux of the matter not whether the secular world thinks and acts as if they are.

Rather than continue to disrupt the thread, maybe a new thread is needed which addresses this question.

#10

The Bookstore / Re: RULE/MARTYROLOGY THREAD

Last post by OmniaInstaurareInChristo - Today at 09:42:29 AM

The reading appointed from the Rule of St. Benedict for April 18:

CHAPTER LXIII
Of the Order of the Community

Let everyone keep that place in the Monastery, which the time of his entering religion, the merit of his life, or the appointment of the Abbot shall determine. And let not the Abbot disquiet the flock committed to him, nor by an undue use of his authority ordain anything unjustly; but let him ever bear in mind that he will have to give an account to God of all his judgments and all his deeds. Therefore in that order which they hold, or which he shall have appointed, let the brethren receive the kiss of peace, approach to Communion, intone the Psalms, and stand in choir. And in no place whatsoever let age decide the order, or be prejudicial to it; for Samuel and Daniel, when but children, judged the elders. Excepting, therefore, those whom (as we have said) the Abbot hath promoted with some special object, or for distinct reasons hath degraded, let all the rest stand in the order of their coming to religion; so that, for example, he who entered the Monastery at the second hour of the day must know that he is lower than he who came at the first hour, whatever may be his age or dignity. The children are to be kept under discipline at all times and by every one.


Martyrology-April 19th
Roman Martyrology-April 19th-on this date in various years-

At Corinth, the birthday of St. Timon, one of the first seven deacons, who was first a teacher at Berea. Afterwards, while preaching the word of the Lord at Corinth, he was delivered to the flames by the Jews and the Greeks, but remaining uninjured, he ended his martyrdom by crucifixion.

At Canterbury in England, St. Elphege, bishop and martyr.

At Melitine in Armenia, the holy martyrs Hermogenes, Caius, Expeditus, Aristonicus, Rufus, and Galatas, all crowned on the same day.

At Collioure in Spain, the martyr St. Vincent.

On the same day, the holy martyrs Socrates and Denis, who were killed with spears.

At Jerusalem, the martyr St. Paphnutius.

At Rome, Pope St. Leo IX, illustrious for his virtues and his miracles.

At Antioch in Pisidia, St. George, a bishop, who died in exile for the veneration of sacred images.

In the monastery of Lobbes in Belgium, the bishop St. Ursmar.

At Florence, St. Crescent, confessor, a disciple of the blessed Bishop Zenobius.

And elsewhere in divers places, many other holy martyrs, confessors, and holy virgins.
R. Thanks be to God.