So what will it mean? St JP2-St.John23?

Started by voxxpopulisuxx, January 22, 2014, 11:38:07 AM

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Archer

I'd be curious to know if any Priests have spoken about this? What is the position of the Society regarding the canonizations?

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"All the good works in the world are not equal to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass because they are the works of men; but the Mass is the work of God. Martyrdom is nothing in comparison for it is but the sacrifice of man to God; but the Mass is the sacrifice of God for man." - St. John Vianney

Petrie

Quote from: james03 on January 23, 2014, 08:17:20 PM
Quotehere is a middle position.  VII is valid, but many people who interpret it are heretics. 
And then there is the factual truth.  It was a non-binding, pastoral, fallible (prone to error), non-dogmatic council.

There is at least one portion of it that is explicitly dogmatic:  Lumen Gentium: Dogmatic Consittution on the Church.  Not infallible?
Also known as 2Vermont in case you were wondering :-)

Petrie

Quote from: james03 on January 23, 2014, 08:15:00 PM
QuoteA tough day for sedeplenists.

Or a really tough day for sedevacantists if the Lord steps in and prevents it. 

Why?  That doesn't change the opinion of most SV's in general.  It only gives us new hope that in the end God will intervene and end the whole crisis one way or another.  This would be the first step in that process.
Also known as 2Vermont in case you were wondering :-)

SouthpawLink

Quote from: Archer on January 24, 2014, 12:47:12 AM
I'd be curious to know if any Priests have spoken about this? What is the position of the Society regarding the canonizations?

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I would imagine that the SSPX denies the infallibility of solemn canonizations, seeing as how they certainly deny the infallibility of the Church's disciplinary laws: http://archives.sspx.org/Catholic_FAQs/catholic_faqs__canonical.htm#disciplinarylaws

The Church's universal laws and solemn canonizations are truths so closely connected with Revelation that doubting or denying them would imperil the faith and/or Revelation itself.  For this reason, they are part of what makes up the Church's secondary object of infallibility.  You can read more about it here: http://sedevacantist.com/van_noort_infallibility.html
"Is there no exception to the rule forbidding the administration of the Sacraments to baptized non-Catholics who are in good faith? In the case of those who are in good health, the prohibition is absolute; no dispute on this point is possible in view of the repeated explicit declarations of the Holy Office" (Rev. S. Woywod, A Practical Commentary on the Code of Canon Law, vol. I, sec. 625, p. 322ff.).

Contrast the above with the 1983 CIC, Can. 844 §3 & 4: "Catholic ministers administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick licitly to members of Eastern Churches which do not have full communion with the Catholic Church. . . .  If the danger of death is present or if, in the judgment of the diocesan bishop or conference of bishops, some other grave necessity urges it, Catholic ministers administer these same sacraments licitly also to other Christians not having full communion with the Catholic Church." — The phrase "properly disposed" does not save the canon from error, because the context shows that no conversion is expected on the part of non-Catholics ("manifest Catholic faith in respect to these sacraments" is the sole requirement).

Greg

Mario Derksen certainly made a very strong case with his cardboard cutout Pope article years ago.

He was a great writer when he was younger.  Haven't heard much from him recently.  Probably got a job.
Contentment is knowing that you're right. Happiness is knowing that someone else is wrong.

Older Salt

Quote from: voxxpopulisuxx on January 22, 2014, 12:04:29 PM
Quote from: Landless Laborer on January 22, 2014, 11:45:54 AM
For me, if it happens, it will mean they are indeed Saints.  I will accept it by faith.
Thats absurd my friend. IMO  You know who these men were...you know what they did and didnt do. They could not possibly be saints.
Vox,
You just said:


"I contend it can only mean a few things.

They are actually Saints"
Stay away from the near occasion of sin

Unless one is deeply attached to the Blessed Virgin Mary, now in time, it impossible to attain salvation.

Older Salt

Quote from: voxxpopulisuxx on January 22, 2014, 02:29:00 PM
Quote from: The Harlequin King on January 22, 2014, 02:26:23 PM
I can only conclude that, if they're really saints, the greater part of this forum is much ado about nothing. Koran kissing is NBD.
Exactly...they might as well offer Ted Kennedy for sainthood.
You can not logically make that absurd jump.

Kennedy supported the murder of pre-natal infants.
Stay away from the near occasion of sin

Unless one is deeply attached to the Blessed Virgin Mary, now in time, it impossible to attain salvation.

Older Salt

Quote from: voxxpopulisuxx on January 22, 2014, 09:48:47 PM
Quote from: Mr Brocklehurst on January 22, 2014, 09:24:11 PM
My faith, which was never robust to begin with, is already hanging by the thinnest of threads.  If this happens, and it almost certainly will, then I think all bets are off and everyone's on their own.  I will probably opt to worship with the high-church Episcopalians.  I apologize if that scandalizes anyone.  It's my honest answer, though.
Piss off jerk...if you do this I will never speak to you again....get a pair of stones and stick with me.
Stick with you, or stick with Christ.

Which one?
Stay away from the near occasion of sin

Unless one is deeply attached to the Blessed Virgin Mary, now in time, it impossible to attain salvation.

voxxpopulisuxx

Quote from: Older Salt on January 24, 2014, 09:02:48 AM
Quote from: voxxpopulisuxx on January 22, 2014, 09:48:47 PM
Quote from: Mr Brocklehurst on January 22, 2014, 09:24:11 PM
My faith, which was never robust to begin with, is already hanging by the thinnest of threads.  If this happens, and it almost certainly will, then I think all bets are off and everyone's on their own.  I will probably opt to worship with the high-church Episcopalians.  I apologize if that scandalizes anyone.  It's my honest answer, though.
Piss off jerk...if you do this I will never speak to you again....get a pair of stones and stick with me.
Stick with you, or stick with Christ.

Which one?
Both
since I will be sticking with Christ( because outside the Body of Christ the Catholic Church there is no salvation)..
..by staying Catholic he stays with Christ
Lord Jesus Christ Most High Son of God have Mercy On Me a Sinner (Jesus Prayer)

"You can never cross the ocean until you have the courage to lose sight of the shore." – Christopher Columbus
911!
"Let my name stand among those who are willing to bear ridicule and reproach for the truth's sake, and so earn some right to rejoice when the victory is won. "— Louisa May Alcott

"From man's sweat and God's love, beer came into the world."St. Arnold (580-640)

Geocentrism holds no possible atheistic downside.

Older Salt

I would like to hear a canonical expert on if Canonizations, now, are infallible or not.

Again, Aquinas and most of the Saints teach that Canonizations are infallible, and until I hear otherwise from a canonical expert, I believe that.
Stay away from the near occasion of sin

Unless one is deeply attached to the Blessed Virgin Mary, now in time, it impossible to attain salvation.

voxxpopulisuxx

Quote from: Older Salt on January 24, 2014, 09:00:54 AM
Quote from: voxxpopulisuxx on January 22, 2014, 02:29:00 PM
Quote from: The Harlequin King on January 22, 2014, 02:26:23 PM
I can only conclude that, if they're really saints, the greater part of this forum is much ado about nothing. Koran kissing is NBD.
"I contend it can only mean a few things.

They are actually Saints"

Exactly...they might as well offer Ted Kennedy for sainthood.
You can not logically make that absurd jump.

Kennedy supported the murder of pre-natal infants.
JP2 covered up pederasty. To whom much is given much will be expected...this man was supposed to be the Pope of the Catholic Church his sins could be construed as horrible as Teds if one considers them spiritually speaking. However I was being hyperbolic to make a point....as to contending "they are actually saints" it was just on my list as a logical choice....but one which I reject as impossible.
Lord Jesus Christ Most High Son of God have Mercy On Me a Sinner (Jesus Prayer)

"You can never cross the ocean until you have the courage to lose sight of the shore." – Christopher Columbus
911!
"Let my name stand among those who are willing to bear ridicule and reproach for the truth's sake, and so earn some right to rejoice when the victory is won. "— Louisa May Alcott

"From man's sweat and God's love, beer came into the world."St. Arnold (580-640)

Geocentrism holds no possible atheistic downside.

Older Salt

Quote from: voxxpopulisuxx on January 24, 2014, 10:39:06 AM
Quote from: Older Salt on January 24, 2014, 09:00:54 AM
Quote from: voxxpopulisuxx on January 22, 2014, 02:29:00 PM
Quote from: The Harlequin King on January 22, 2014, 02:26:23 PM
I can only conclude that, if they're really saints, the greater part of this forum is much ado about nothing. Koran kissing is NBD.
"I contend it can only mean a few things.

They are actually Saints"

Exactly...they might as well offer Ted Kennedy for sainthood.
You can not logically make that absurd jump.

Kennedy supported the murder of pre-natal infants.
JP2 covered up pederasty. To whom much is given much will be expected...this man was supposed to be the Pope of the Catholic Church his sins could be construed as horrible as Teds if one considers them spiritually speaking. However I was being hyperbolic to make a point....as to contending "they are actually saints" it was just on my list as a logical choice....but one which I reject as impossible.
Understood.
I was being a bunghole.
Stay away from the near occasion of sin

Unless one is deeply attached to the Blessed Virgin Mary, now in time, it impossible to attain salvation.

voxxpopulisuxx

Quote from: Older Salt on January 24, 2014, 10:41:49 AM
Quote from: voxxpopulisuxx on January 24, 2014, 10:39:06 AM
Quote from: Older Salt on January 24, 2014, 09:00:54 AM
Quote from: voxxpopulisuxx on January 22, 2014, 02:29:00 PM
Quote from: The Harlequin King on January 22, 2014, 02:26:23 PM
I can only conclude that, if they're really saints, the greater part of this forum is much ado about nothing. Koran kissing is NBD.
"I contend it can only mean a few things.

They are actually Saints"

Exactly...they might as well offer Ted Kennedy for sainthood.
You can not logically make that absurd jump.

Kennedy supported the murder of pre-natal infants.
JP2 covered up pederasty. To whom much is given much will be expected...this man was supposed to be the Pope of the Catholic Church his sins could be construed as horrible as Teds if one considers them spiritually speaking. However I was being hyperbolic to make a point....as to contending "they are actually saints" it was just on my list as a logical choice....but one which I reject as impossible.
Understood.
I was being a bunghole.
Thats a bit harsh...easy friend you have no need to say this :o
Lord Jesus Christ Most High Son of God have Mercy On Me a Sinner (Jesus Prayer)

"You can never cross the ocean until you have the courage to lose sight of the shore." – Christopher Columbus
911!
"Let my name stand among those who are willing to bear ridicule and reproach for the truth's sake, and so earn some right to rejoice when the victory is won. "— Louisa May Alcott

"From man's sweat and God's love, beer came into the world."St. Arnold (580-640)

Geocentrism holds no possible atheistic downside.

INPEFESS

#88
Quote from: The Harlequin King on January 23, 2014, 02:46:05 PM
Quote from: Mr Brocklehurst on January 23, 2014, 02:31:38 PM
HK, do you agree with Greg about the wording/formula of the declaration?

Yes. To say that a canonization is invalid because Francis forgets a Latin word here or there (an argument which will undoubtedly be made by someone immediately after the cameras stop rolling that day) just doesn't fly. This isn't a sacrament that must follow a specific form set out by Our Lord. This is an expression of the Pope's infallibility as proudly proclaimed by Pius IX. We've signed on to a faith that teaches that in the realm of faith and morals, the Pope's will is law. I'm really not an ultramontanist, but in this case, there's no way to argue around it. If the canonizations happen, either traditional Catholicism (as a fight to preserve doctrine) is a sham and absolutely not worth arguing on the Internet about or trolling one's liberal Facebook friends over, much less dying for..... or Francis is not the pope.

What a breath of fresh air.

Still, however, I fear that the oft-repeated argument that this or that phrase was not used will become the rule of the day, and traditional Catholics who fear nothing more than the sight of the crossroads will find a way to have their cake and eat it, too.

"He didn't use the phrase 'by our apostolic authority'! Therefore...!"

They will completely forget that the entire process of canonization has changed over time, but the question of whether canonizations are infallible has never hinged on any particular form the process has taken in history; the question concerns the meaning and purpose of canonization rather than the process by which it is achieved. 

Thus, it is not the process itself that is said to be infallible but the fact that the cult of such and such a person is being prescribed and imposed upon the universal Church as a public profession of the Church's teachings on faith and morals as manifested in this person's public activity and as a model of sanctity for all to emulate according to their state in life without danger to their spiritual well-being.

A Church that is not protected from setting up Martin Luther, Hitler, or Nero as models of sanctity and professions of the Church's teachings on faith and morals would not be an indefectible Church.
I  n
N omine
P atris,
E t
F ilii,
E t
S piritus
S ancti

>))))))º> "Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time" (II Peter 1:10). <º((((((<


Greg

I wonder how many SV Chapels have ordered extra chairs or pews?
Contentment is knowing that you're right. Happiness is knowing that someone else is wrong.