Humility: Good or Bad?

Started by Probius, October 12, 2013, 08:23:04 PM

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Probius


Quote from: james03 on October 12, 2013, 10:00:58 PM
Yes, she strictly opposed it.  She makes a statement about it in Atlas Shrugged that most people miss.  It is in the end when James Taggert is trying to kill Galt.  After a while, he says, No. No. No., and then Galt says Yes. and Taggert goes insane.  What Taggert realized was that he was a nihilist and worshipped death.

Since Rand based her philosophy on Aristotle (talk about contradiction), so she said a lot of very Catholic things.

By the way, what do you mean by "man"?  The individual, or the race?

Galt was Rand's ideal man.  John Galt and Dagny Taggert differed in their opinion of what the solution was.  Galt wanted to abandon society, let it crumble, and then rebuild it.  Dagny wanted to keep fighting the good fight.  Eventually Galt wins out and Dagny goes along with him.  I love that book.  :)
You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe deserve your love and affection." - The Buddha

"Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate." - Carl Jung

Gerard

Quote from: Crimson Flyboy on October 12, 2013, 09:45:49 PM

Excellent point.  A thing is bad in so far as it does not advance man in his quest for survival.  Pride is the joy one takes in achieving one's own moral perfection.  Humility is self-abasement, it is to see no value in one's own self.  The humble man says 'I am no good, and I do not intend on improving'.  Clearly y'all are using the term differently.

Well..first, forgive me if I don't come off clear, I've got A LOT of beer swimming through my system right now, (trying to flush out a possible kidney stone) so I'm a little dizzy. 

But essentially, I think you are inverting the terms.  Your concept of the "quest for survival" is essentially the "Pro-life" position (ie. the virtue..since virtues are things that are life affirming and enriching as the root of the word indicates.

Now, as you are describing Humility, the Catholic would see that as Pride.  To see no value in one's own self is to deny the wisdom of God.  Each person has an innate value because they were created by a Superior (the Supreme) being.  The Pride is inverted to be sure, it's an extreme of devaluing and making a judgment  beyond one's capacity and desiring a condemnation that is excessive to the reality. 

What you are referring to as Pride would simply be Joy following Magnaminity to the Catholic.  Magnaminity is the stretching of the mind towards great things.  And that's a relative thing or an absolute thing according to one's capabilities. In either case, it has to be proportionate and reasonable.

The Church has worked out and explained best through St. Thomas an understanding of the Virtues and the Vices.  Do you have a similar vocabulary and understanding?  What are the vices as you know them? 





Gerard

Quote from: Crimson Flyboy on October 12, 2013, 09:59:41 PM
Understood.  I am not agnostic because this term means that something can not be known.  I think that if God were to exist, surely he would reveal himself to mankind.

Agnostic is the common term based on the Greek and I don't want to use the Latin term because it has a negative connotation in modern understanding. 

But I'm sure you haven't addressed every argument for the existence of God and refuted each one of them. 

To the point, if God were to exist, exactly how should He reveal Himself to mankind?  My point being that He has revealed Himself, but in His way, not ours as we are today.

james03

QuoteI love that book.
It is a great book in that Rand uses Aristotle to analyze the flaws of the "shamans of material".  Though my favorite is Francisco, much more than Galt.  Furthermore I like Riordin because he is a creator and producer.  He is a creator because he is made in the image and likeness of God, Who is a creator.  Thus we have joy in creating and producing.

Rand has a serious flaw in her book.  She attributes the error of the "shamans of material" as being Original Sin.  And yet communists reject Original Sin.  David Horowitz, a former communist discusses this as his root error.  He denied Original Sin, and thus accepted communism.  I prefer the opinion of the man who lived the life versus a novelist.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Probius


Quote from: james03 on October 12, 2013, 10:07:28 PM
OK.  So where does love come in?  Is it bad for a man to die defending his wife and kids?  Don't we KNOW that when a man dies defending his wife, he is making the greatest declaration of love for his wife and kids?  That contradicts your definition because dying is not surviving.  Your definition calls that evil.  Do you believe that?

How about brotherly love?  A man jumps on a grenade to save his brother soldiers.  We KNOW in our heart that this is the greatest declaration of brotherly love, and yet according to you this would be evil.  Do you believe this?

We should keep defining terms.  Love is the spiritual payment given to another in exchange for the selfish pleasure of enjoying another's virtues.  Nota Bene: I use the term 'spiritual' here metaphorically for lack of a better term.

So, a man is not bad for defending his wife and children.  He can even give his life for them, but this in no way is a sacrifice, for he would be exchanging his life for a greater value.  As for the second example.  It is ill advised to put much thought into feelings from the heart.  Man should not live by his whims, but rather by his mind.  Per above, if a man jumps on the grenade he is exchanging his life for the lives of his friends.  It is an exchange, and not a sacrifice.
You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe deserve your love and affection." - The Buddha

"Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate." - Carl Jung

james03

But you are the one who said doing something  opposed to the survival of the (individual) man is evil.  You are contradicting yourself.  What higher good is there since after he dies he is gone?

And there is a reason why you can't find a better term than spiritual.  You are in a sense whistling past the graveyard and not addressing something you know to be true.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

james03

QuoteI've got A LOT of beer swimming through my system right now,

Ha ha.  Me too.  I guess alcohol gets the philosophical juices flowing.  That and some fine North Carolina leaf.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Probius


Quote from: james03 on October 12, 2013, 10:21:59 PM
QuoteI love that book.
It is a great book in that Rand uses Aristotle to analyze the flaws of the "shamans of material".  Though my favorite is Francisco, much more than Galt.  Furthermore I like Riordin because he is a creator and producer.  He is a creator because he is made in the image and likeness of God, Who is a creator.  Thus we have joy in creating and producing.

Rand has a serious flaw in her book.  She attributes the error of the "shamans of material" as being Original Sin.  And yet communists reject Original Sin.  David Horowitz, a former communist discusses this as his root error.  He denied Original Sin, and thus accepted communism.  I prefer the opinion of the man who lived the life versus a novelist.

Rand also denied original sin, as do I.  She called it the root of irrational thinking.  The denial of original sin does not necessarily lead to Communism.
You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe deserve your love and affection." - The Buddha

"Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate." - Carl Jung

james03

QuoteI am not a Communist, I am a bitter opponent of Communism.

That is good.  As Catholics are bitter opponents of Communism.  We understand them far more than an atheist can.  The Church opposed them even before Marx.  A Catholic is born and his birth right is the to-the-death struggle against marxists.  Just look at the Spanish Civil War.

And the communists understand that the Church must die for them to win.  And for all intents-and-purposes, they have won.  Communism will triumph because there is no longer anything to stand in their way.

Just look at Gramsci, which launched the Frankfurt School, which launched Saul Alinsky, which led to Obama.  And this was because Gramsci realized that he had to infiltrate and destroy the Catholic Church in order for communism to survive.  And sadly, he won.  For now.

That's it for tonight.  Thanks for having an interesting discussion with us and refraining from trolling.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Probius


Quote from: james03 on October 12, 2013, 10:25:51 PM
But you are the one who said doing something  opposed to the survival of the (individual) man is evil.  You are contradicting yourself.  What higher good is there since after he dies he is gone?

And there is a reason why you can't find a better term than spiritual.  You are in a sense whistling past the graveyard and not addressing something you know to be true.

I didn't explain myself very well.  A man's actions should benefit himself in some way.  Normally this means enriching his life and continuing his existence.  However, in rare occasions it can mean the continued existence of one's offspring, as this is a man's only hope for immortality, or the continued existence of a loved spouse.  I don't quite understand giving up one's life for a spouse, but then again I have never been in love.

The term spiritual does work quite well.  However, that does not mean that the soul is real.
You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe deserve your love and affection." - The Buddha

"Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate." - Carl Jung

james03

QuoteThe denial of original sin does not necessarily lead to Communism.

But a real Communist, a leader of the movement, has come out and stated that he was a communist BECAUSE he denied Original Sin.  He believed a utopia was possible.  He isn't lying.

The other thing is Atlas Shrugged is all about Fallen Men.  Envy, jealousy, greed (in the looters).  Heck, a Catholic could have told her about that.

"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

james03

QuoteA man's actions should benefit himself in some way.  Normally this means enriching his life and continuing his existence.  However, in rare occasions it can mean the continued existence of one's offspring, as this is a man's only hope for immortality, or the continued existence of a loved spouse.  I don't quite understand giving up one's life for a spouse, but then again I have never been in love.

The term spiritual does work quite well.  However, that does not mean that the soul is real.

This is hitch hiking on Catholic thought without accepting the NECESSARY premise.  A dead man who is worm food is not benefiting if you are a true atheist.  You are PRESUMING "good" things and not ESTABLISHING them. 

And I really need to go to bed.  Thanks for the discussion.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"

Probius


Quote from: james03 on October 12, 2013, 10:41:29 PM
QuoteI am not a Communist, I am a bitter opponent of Communism.

That is good.  As Catholics are bitter opponents of Communism.  We understand them far more than an atheist can.  The Church opposed them even before Marx.  A Catholic is born and his birth right is the to-the-death struggle against marxists.  Just look at the Spanish Civil War.

And the communists understand that the Church must die for them to win.  And for all intents-and-purposes, they have won.  Communism will triumph because there is no longer anything to stand in their way.

Just look at Gramsci, which launched the Frankfurt School, which launched Saul Alinsky, which led to Obama.  And this was because Gramsci realized that he had to infiltrate and destroy the Catholic Church in order for communism to survive.  And sadly, he won.  For now.

That's it for tonight.  Thanks for having an interesting discussion with us and refraining from trolling.

Your certainly right in that Communism cannot win as long as the Church is alive and well, and neither can the revolution.  But the revolution does not need the Church to die, just to be liberalized.  A liberal Church gives the revolution a chance at victory.

I'm not sure the Church does understand Communism well.  At least the Catholics I have spoken to do not.  Most Catholics equate Communism with materialistic atheists.  That's not a good definition.
You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe deserve your love and affection." - The Buddha

"Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate." - Carl Jung

Probius


Quote from: james03 on October 12, 2013, 10:44:55 PM
QuoteThe denial of original sin does not necessarily lead to Communism.

But a real Communist, a leader of the movement, has come out and stated that he was a communist BECAUSE he denied Original Sin.  He believed a utopia was possible.  He isn't lying.

The other thing is Atlas Shrugged is all about Fallen Men.  Envy, jealousy, greed (in the looters).  Heck, a Catholic could have told her about that.

I meant the denial of original sin can lead to many things, Communism is just one of those things.  Good night.
You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe deserve your love and affection." - The Buddha

"Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate." - Carl Jung

Christknight104

Interestingly, the contemporary video game Bioshock focuses on Ayn Rand's Objectivist philosophy. The speech here that the main antagonist Andrew Ryan(notice that his name is a play on AYn Rand's name) declares summarizes the Objectivist opposition to altruism:

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