Everyone welcome but traditionalists

[INPEFESS]

How much control do you think Pope Benedict XVI has over the Vatican? Is he a prisoner in the Vatican... a figurehead with a puppeteer pulling the strings? Does he have control but feels for some reason that he has to play both sides to keep everyone happy? Or does he have full control and this is really his vision for the Catholic Church?

What say you?

I think he's a notorious enemy of our Holy Faith, as made clear by his public actions and statements. How culpable he is for all of this I don't pretend to know--nor do I desire to know--but I will not stand idly by while he continues to attack our Holy Faith afraid to condemn his (and others') manifest attacks on the Faith because this is viewed as extreme and harsh, or because of the unpopularity of doing so.

Whether he somehow remains the pope or not through all of this, and manages to avoid heresy or schism, I honestly don't know; but I do know that on account of his apparent heresy he need not be considered one. This is the teaching of St. Robert Bellarmine, Doctor of the Church.

We traditionalists have become too lax in our defense of the Faith, which is a manifest lack of love for it. Benefit of doubt should be extended to the internal forum whenever possible, but we spend too much time applying benefit of doubt to the internal forum and ignoring what is being done in the external forum because we are afraid of what other Catholics will think of us.

I think a great many of us are afraid of being labelled "uncharitable," "disobedient," and "judgmental," so we refrain from defending the Faith as we should and from saying what needs to be said. I, too, have often fallen victim to this. We will all have to render an account to God one day for allowing the Faith to be attacked by the pope without a word.

The "prisoner in the Vatican" theory does not exonerate Benedict or anyone else in the external forum. At the most, it can give us hope that he is somehow guiltless in the internal forum; but, since men are unable to read hearts, we are obliged to oppose with vigor all apparent attacks against the Faith, regardless of whence they come, while praying and hoping for the innocence of the one perpetrating such attacks.

[dust]

From H.H. Poe Benedict XVI:

http://www.traditioninaction.org/ProgressivistDoc/A_029_RatzingerRazeBastions.htm

http://www.traditioninaction.org/ProgressivistDoc/A_068_RatzMass.htm

http://www.traditioninaction.org/ProgressivistDoc/A_067_RatzLimbo.htm

http://www.traditioninaction.org/ProgressivistDoc/A_004_Ratizinger_Kung.htm

http://www.traditioninaction.org/ProgressivistDoc/A_012_RatzAnoyimousChrist.htm

http://www.traditioninaction.org/ProgressivistDoc/A_018_RatzingerScholasticism.htm

http://www.traditioninaction.org/ProgressivistDoc/A_034_RatzTeilhard.htm

http://www.traditioninaction.org/ProgressivistDoc/A_031_RatzingerCouterSyllabus.htm

There are many more. It is wishful thinking to believe that the destructive ideology is being forced on The Holy Father. It is all to apperant from His own writtings that He was molded by Kung, Rahner, de Chardin, et. al. He will continue on this line. Like St. Athanasius, we will continue in the desert, praying for deliverence. The Jews were in Babylon for 40 years. We have had 50, and counting.

[INPEFESS]

There are many more. It is wishful thinking to believe that the destructive ideology is being forced on The Holy Father. It is all to apperant from His own writtings that He was molded by Kung, Rahner, de Chardin, et. al.

Exactly. A person who claims such a thing is ignorant of his views as a priest, bishop, and cardinal. Was he a prisoner then, too, while promoting the same errors before and during the council as he is promoting after it?

[tmw89]

There are many more. It is wishful thinking to believe that the destructive ideology is being forced on The Holy Father. It is all to apperant from His own writtings that He was molded by Kung, Rahner, de Chardin, et. al.

Exactly. A person who claims such a thing is ignorant of his views as a priest, bishop, and cardinal. Was he a prisoner then, too, while promoting the same errors before and during the council as he is promoting after it?

And yet a "Conciliar peritus confirms Benedict XVI does not think like Profr. Ratzinger" (http://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=739.0) . . .

. . . I mean, it's all there in that totally objective article.  No agenda from a fellow peritus.

[zork]

How much control do you think Pope Benedict XVI has over the Vatican? Is he a prisoner in the Vatican... a figurehead with a puppeteer pulling the strings? Does he have control but feels for some reason that he has to play both sides to keep everyone happy? Or does he have full control and this is really his vision for the Catholic Church?

What say you?

I think he's a notorious enemy of our Holy Faith, as made clear by his public actions and statements. How culpable he is for all of this I don't pretend to know--nor do I desire to know--but I will not stand idly by while he continues to attack our Holy Faith afraid to condemn his (and others') manifest attacks on the Faith because this is viewed as extreme and harsh, or because of the unpopularity of doing so.

Whether he somehow remains the pope or not through all of this, and manages to avoid heresy or schism, I honestly don't know; but I do know that on account of his apparent heresy he need not be considered one. This is the teaching of St. Robert Bellarmine, Doctor of the Church.

We traditionalists have become too lax in our defense of the Faith, which is a manifest lack of love for it. Benefit of doubt should be extended to the internal forum whenever possible, but we spend too much time applying benefit of doubt to the internal forum and ignoring what is being done in the external forum because we are afraid of what other Catholics will think of us.

I think a great many of us are afraid of being labelled "uncharitable," "disobedient," and "judgmental," so we refrain from defending the Faith as we should and from saying what needs to be said. I, too, have often fallen victim to this. We will all have to render an account to God one day for allowing the Faith to be attacked by the pope without a word.

The "prisoner in the Vatican" theory does not exonerate Benedict or anyone else in the external forum. At the most, it can give us hope that he is somehow guiltless in the internal forum; but, since men are unable to read hearts, we are obliged to oppose with vigor all apparent attacks against the Faith, regardless of whence they come, while praying and hoping for the innocence of the one perpetrating such attacks.

Yeah, who should we fear: Humanity, which though it can influence one if one were to allow it, has no say or control over the destiny of our immortal souls; or of God, who DESIRES that we be saved, and will grant us such as we need for that end, though shall justly render a just punishment even to most of the elect (the rest of the elect that He deems instantly worthy of human exempt, of course). Obviously, I don't mean a craven fear of God, but of utmost respect and recognition that He and He alone matters. No one else ultimately does.

[INPEFESS]

There are many more. It is wishful thinking to believe that the destructive ideology is being forced on The Holy Father. It is all to apperant from His own writtings that He was molded by Kung, Rahner, de Chardin, et. al.

Exactly. A person who claims such a thing is ignorant of his views as a priest, bishop, and cardinal. Was he a prisoner then, too, while promoting the same errors before and during the council as he is promoting after it?

And yet a "Conciliar peritus confirms Benedict XVI does not think like Profr. Ratzinger" (http://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=739.0) . . .

. . . I mean, it's all there in that totally objective article.  No agenda from a fellow peritus.

. . . despite the fact that then-Cardinal Ratzinger himself affirmed just the opposite. I'll take his word for it as it pertains to his own opinions over a conciliar peritus:

"I do not see a real, profound difference between my work at Vatican Council II and my present work."

J. Ratzinger, Interview with Walter Falceta, "Ratzinger reafirma identidad catolica," 29 July 1990.

See post #102 here for more information.

[tmw89]

There are many more. It is wishful thinking to believe that the destructive ideology is being forced on The Holy Father. It is all to apperant from His own writtings that He was molded by Kung, Rahner, de Chardin, et. al.

Exactly. A person who claims such a thing is ignorant of his views as a priest, bishop, and cardinal. Was he a prisoner then, too, while promoting the same errors before and during the council as he is promoting after it?

And yet a "Conciliar peritus confirms Benedict XVI does not think like Profr. Ratzinger" (http://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=739.0) . . .

. . . I mean, it's all there in that totally objective article.  No agenda from a fellow peritus.

. . . despite the fact that then-Cardinal Ratzinger himself affirmed just the opposite. I'll take his word for it as it pertains to his own opinions over a conciliar peritus:

"I do not see a real, profound difference between my work at Vatican Council II and my present work."

J. Ratzinger, Interview with Walter Falceta, "Ratzinger reafirma identidad catolica," 29 July 1990.

See post #102 here for more information.

No worries, I brought up the old SD post and its quoted article in jest.  And I think I vaguely remember that thread from the other place back when it was still going on!

Anyhoo, I forgot reading that quote from the German fellow before, but it looks like I finally have material for a Suscipe Domine signature 

[Quo Vadis]

More of Our Lady of Good Success in Quito, excerpted from: http://www.traditioninaction.org/OLGS/A001olgs%20fat.htm

Finally we arrived at one of the most important apparitions of Our Lady of Good Success to Mother Mariana in 1634, a year before her death. As Mother Marian prayed before the Blessed Sacrament on Feb. 2 (the Feast of the Purification - Presentation), she saw the sanctuary light extinguish itself, leaving the altar place completely dark. This is significant in itself for those of us today who have reason to believe that, in fact, in many churches across the world the Tabernacle light has, quite literally, been extinguished.
...
However, there would be souls, She promised, who would remain faithful and would preserve the treasure of the Faith and virtues. But these would suffer a cruel, unspeakable and prolonged martyrdom. "In order to free men from bondage to these heresies, those chosen by Most Holy Son to effect the restoration will need great strength of will, constancy, valor and confidence in God. To test this faith and confidence of the just, there will be occasions where all will seem to be lost and paralyzed. This, then, will be the happy beginning of the complete restoration."

These chosen souls, who will restore the health of the Church, seem to be very similar to the apostles of the latter times predicted by St. Louis Marie Grignion de Montfort.
...
"How the Church will suffer during this dark night! ...[ Lacking a prelate and father to guide them with paternal love, gentleness, strength, wisdom and prudence, many priests will lose their spirit, placing their souls in great danger."]

But Our Lady promised that there would be "religious communities and individuals who would labor with valor and disinterested zeal for the salvation of souls. Against them, the impious would rage cruel wars."
...
She promised Her intercession at the very moment when the evil will appear triumphant and when the authority abuses her power. This would mark, as She said, "the arrival of my hour, when, in a marvelous way, I will dethrone the proud and accursed Satan, trampling him under my feet and fettering him in the infernal abyss."

[dust]

This question may be fuel for another thread, but i will ask anyway:
Does anyone else see the links in the Rhinelander theologians and what has become their influence over the Church and Luther? Or am i wearing tinfoil again?

[tmw89]

This question may be fuel for another thread, but i will ask anyway:
Does anyone else see the links in the Rhinelander theologians and what has become their influence over the Church and Luther? Or am i wearing tinfoil again?

No tinfoiling at all!  I see a connection as well.

A topic I'd love to post at some point has to do with the influence of the Third Reich's liturgical "Germanization" (my word) pushes on the Church ca. 1933-1945.  It's a topic I don't see discussed nearly enough, nor treated very thoroughly at all.  It only came to my attention a couple of years ago, and at the time didn't have much success turning up information about it.

[INPEFESS]

No worries, I brought up the old SD post and its quoted article in jest.  And I think I vaguely remember that thread from the other place back when it was still going on!

Yes, I realized that; I was just using it as an opportunity to give Benedict a chance to defend himself. 

I apologize if I sounded antagonistic.

[tmw89]

I apologize if I sounded antagonistic.

Not at all!