Asking the father's blessing

Started by Ancilla Domini, August 29, 2014, 01:30:27 PM

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Ancilla Domini

How important is it to ask a father's permission to marry his daughter? Is it simply a courteous gesture? Or is his permission required? Should the mother also be consulted? Is her blessing equally or less important? What about the groom's parents? Should two people ever marry without the approval of all members of both families? And how should a young man go about broaching this topic? What advice would you give? I'm curious, as I've seen a wide variety of attitudes among Trads regarding this custom.

LouisIX

My opinion:

All parents should being accepting of a marriage.  If two want to marry without a parent's (or group of parents') approval then there ought to be some serious reason for disregarding them (like unreasonable demands, a disregard for a child's vocation, a grudge, etc.)  This disapproval should be known to the priest marrying the couple.  He, of course, has the final decision over whether one is dispensed from submission to parental authority in this case.  I do not think one has the authority to make this decision themselves.

As far as the father of the bride specifically, I think he should be explicitly asked.  He has a special care and relationship with his child that is not exactly matched by a mother-daughter, father-son, or mother-son relationship.  He is her defense against the malicious intent and/or foolishness of other men.  That is why the tradition is so well-entrenched.  In the traditional marriage ceremony (at least in America), the father actually walks up and gives his daughter away to the suitor.  Again, his objection should be addressed with a priest, and one should not marry without the priest's knowledge and consent to disregard that objection.  This should only be done for a justifiable reason.

I think it is sometimes appropriate for a girl's mother to be present when the father and suitor speak.  This is what happened when I asked Mrs.Featherbottom's father's permission.  This was done mostly because a) he's quiet and her presence would help facilitate conversation and b) she probably wanted to be involved and say a few things.  If a suitor feels that his girl's mother would like to be there then he can arrange that to happen, but I do not think he is obliged in the same way that he is to speak to her father.
IF I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

Gardener

How important is it to ask a father's permission to marry his daughter?

Firstly, I think we have to make a distinction between asking permission and seeking a blessing. Simply put, permission is not something that can be asked as he has no part in the reality of the Sacrament. His consent or lack thereof has no effect on the ability to marry, particularly if the issue is not something the Church has not deemed an impediment. I think it is important to seek the blessing of the father so far as he is competent in giving it, i.e., he's in the picture, is a good father, etc. If he's a rat bastard, one could be courteous and approach him, but eh...

Is it simply a courteous gesture? Yes and no. Sometimes a young man doesn't see things about himself that a father might, and the father might say, "I will consent and give my blessing, but first I want you to work on x, y, and z". Any young man worth his salt will realize he has misjudged himself and will set about quickly fixing his deficiencies.

Or is his permission required? Absolutely not.

Should the mother also be consulted? No; the father is the head of the family. He speaks for the family. If there is something which is an impediment of which the mother is aware, she should have already brought it up to the husband whilst courting/dating was occurring. At the very least, the parents should have an opportunity to talk before "the talk" is had.

Is her blessing equally or less important? Not important at all; it should be integrated into the father's decision. A VP might consult with the president of the company, but in the end the decision is on the president. Sometimes, that means a decision opposite of the VP's.

What about the groom's parents? Similar to the bride's parents, if they are in the picture they certainly should be aware. If there is a real issue, they should, in the love of parenting, bring up and even correct. However, they cannot make the decision.

Should two people ever marry without the approval of all members of both families?

It is obviously ideal if all are on board with the idea, but people are weird and fickle. They make mountains from molehills. They're mentally incompetent in context. They might dislike that the groom isn't of a certain social class or is a bit brash or maybe is a bit of a dweeb. Or the groom's side might think the woman "isn't good enough for their son". Whatever.

And how should a young man go about broaching this topic? What advice would you give?

He should inform the father of the bride-to-be that he wishes to discuss an important matter with him, the question of marrying his daughter, and set up a date/time/place to do so. This gives the father time to formulate questions, discuss with his wife, really evaluate the man's presence in the life of his daughter, etc. Looking at it from a business perspective, we are essentially talking about a merger. One wouldn't go give an answer without some research and questions. They might tend towards "no" and after looking at everything realize it IS a beneficial arrangement after all, despite initial impressions. Or, they might think it will be a no-brainer and then realize there are some serious conflicts of interest, despite the initial belief of a fitting match.

The young man should be ready to answer questions honestly about his state in life, goals, potential, and anything else. This is the opportunity for everything to be laid out on the table. He would be good to go in with paper evidence of financial standing, and if in debt he should show a solid plan to rid himself of that debt, preferably before the wedding. He should show ability to provide for not only the bride but also any children which will result in the first year or two of marriage.

The father should be there as the advocate for his daughter, not the enemy of the man; there is a difference. He should ask pertinent, meaningful questions. He should be realistic. He should be fair.
"If anyone does not wish to have Mary Immaculate for his Mother, he will not have Christ for his Brother." - St. Maximilian Kolbe

verenaerin

I think it is hard to make any type of generalizations with this. So many families are so screwed up, especially when it comes to religion.

If it's a traditional family I would go with what has been said above. If the family is broken, or dysfunctional, then do whatever works out the best for the couple.

The Harlequin King

If the father is the head of a functional, traditional family, then I would say it's moderately important. Especially so if the woman has never lived away from home for any significant time. The father's permission or blessing, however, is absolutely NOT required. The Church stresses that it is the consent of the bride and groom alone which makes a sacramental marriage valid. This put the Church directly at odds with the feudal states of medieval Europe time and again, to the point of excommunications and political battles at times. I could write a whole essay on this subject.

My bride's father is uninvolved in her life, so I've never asked him, spoken to him, or ever met him, nor am I particularly interested in ever doing so.

The Harlequin King

Quote from: LouisIX
In the traditional marriage ceremony (at least in America), the father actually walks up and gives his daughter away to the suitor.

A clarification is needed here if we're talking about Catholicism. There is no rubric in either the TLM, the NO, or any rite of the Church where the father gives the bride away. I am not saying it's "wrong". The Church allows more room for traditions and custons to accompany marriage than any other rite. But giving the bride away has as much standing in the Catholic liturgy as having bridesmaids or having the priest say "you may now kiss the bride" at some point. A Catholic wedding is just as fine without it.

Arun

should be done but not always gonna happen in this world. Trads should do it every time because they know beyyer than to not


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Quote from: St.Justin on September 25, 2015, 07:57:25 PM
Never lose Hope... Take a deep breath and have a beer.

Mother Aubert Pray For Us!



vsay ego sudba V rukah Gospodnih

The Curt Jester

Might depend on age, too?  For instance, if two people getting married are both age 40... well, it might seem a little bizarre.
The royal feast was done; the King
Sought some new sport to banish care,
And to his jester cried: "Sir Fool,
Kneel now, and make for us a prayer!"

The jester doffed his cap and bells,
And stood the mocking court before;
They could not see the bitter smile
Behind the painted grin he wore.

He bowed his head, and bent his knee
Upon the Monarch's silken stool;
His pleading voice arose: "O Lord,
Be merciful to me, a fool!"

Arun

i always thought of it as an act of respect or courtesy. never too old for that man.


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Quote from: St.Justin on September 25, 2015, 07:57:25 PM
Never lose Hope... Take a deep breath and have a beer.

Mother Aubert Pray For Us!



vsay ego sudba V rukah Gospodnih

drummerboy

Somewhat off-topic, but what about engagement rings?  I've heard that traditionally a man did not present the lady with a ring while proposing.
- I'll get with the times when the times are worth getting with

"I like grumpy old cusses.  Hope to live long enough to be one" - John Wayne

The Harlequin King

Quote from: drummerboy on August 29, 2014, 06:41:23 PM
Somewhat off-topic, but what about engagement rings?  I've heard that traditionally a man did not present the lady with a ring while proposing.

You must mean waiting to give a ring until the solemn rite of betrothal. A laudable practice which I followed, but very rarely observed by the 20th century. The rite of betrothal was actually reinserted into the most recent preconciliar edition of the Ritual, I think.

Chestertonian

a lot of it depends on what the father is like. 

If hes'at all respectable, I think it is good to ask for his blessing.  You want to start the marriage off right and making sure both the bride's family and the groom's family are supportive makes a lot of difference.  I know because when my wife and ig to married we didn't have the support of my family or her family, but we said SCREW YOU ALL and got married in the catholic church anyway, haters gonna hate

and the people who really loved us, learned to understand our decision.  my mom still thinks i'm cool :)

My wife's father is a low life, good for nothing bastard.  He was not even invited to our wedding but of the little time i've spent with him, it has taken all self control not to end his life.  he is a pedophile and he abused my wife when she was kindergarten.  i am not interested in what he thinks of me, or our marriage and i am especially not interested in what he thinks of our child.  it is a good thing he lives on another side of the country and he is not allowed in our home. 

we also did not do the traditional "giving away."  instead, we processed into the church together, along with the priest, altar servers, and the "gifts" ministers blah blah blah (we had a NO wedding)  of course i wish the wedding was traditional but i don't think that the bride walking down the aisle with her father in her own procession is even in the rubrics

Quote from: drummerboy on August 29, 2014, 06:41:23 PM
Somewhat off-topic, but what about engagement rings?  I've heard that traditionally a man did not present the lady with a ring while proposing.

I don't recommend proposing without a ring. 

It should be the nicest ring you can afford without going into debt.  It's a symbol of your ability to provide, your ability to self sacrifice, and the fact that you are invested in her.  You shouldn't go broke for it.  I have a friend who proposed to his wife with a gold ring with 10 small stones going around it and a small cross at the top--a rosary ring.  I don't think he spent a ton of money on it but It got the job done.  my wife has a sapphire engagement ring.... which she was happy with because she didn't want any blood diamonds

"I am not much of a Crusader, that is for sure, but at least I am not a Mohamedist!"

The Harlequin King

Quote from: Chestertonian on August 29, 2014, 10:07:01 PM
we also did not do the traditional "giving away."  instead, we processed into the church together, along with the priest, altar servers, and the "gifts" ministers blah blah blah (we had a NO wedding)  of course i wish the wedding was traditional but i don't think that the bride walking down the aisle with her father in her own procession is even in the rubrics

The traditional Roman Ritual and Missal are both silent on the subject, and begin with the bride and groom at the altar. Couples are at liberty to process in whatever manner they like (within the limits of reverence). It is my opinion, though, that if there is to be a nuptial Mass, there ought to be a procession of the clergy and ministers as usual, rather than have them enter through a side door to make way for the bride on "her big day". Having the bride and groom enter together is, I think, more liturgically sound since they are the ministers of the sacrament, but again, there are no rubrics on this point. It's hard to say what happened "historically" because for the greater part of Christian history, marriages were witnessed outside at the portal of the church, or somewhere else entirely. Thus, if there was a nuptial Mass to follow, bride and groom always processed in together, but they were already married at that point.

As for the Novus Ordo's Rite of Marriage, its rubric actually specifies the bride and groom to process in together. Like many other Novus Ordo rubrics, this is an exercise in futility, since it gets followed probably less than 1% of the time. I've heard that a lot of women go bridezilla when that order of procession is even brought up by a priest or other planner. You, Chestertonian, are the 1%.

dymphna17

I don't know, I really would have missed the look on Hubby's face when I walked in.  We even got a picture of it and it's one of my favorites.

My Dad walking me up the aisle gave me strength and the courage I needed to make it up there.
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I adore Thee O Christ, and I bless Thee, because by Thy holy cross Thou hast redeemed the world!

Jesus, Mary, and Joseph save souls!

Of course I wear jeans, "The tornadoes can make dresses immodest." RSC

"Don't waste time in your life trying to get even with your enemies. The grave is a tremendous equalizer. Six weeks after you all are dead, you'll look pretty much the same. Let the Lord take care of those whom you think have harmed you. All you have to do is love and forgive. Try to forget and leave all else to the Master."– Mother Angelica

The Harlequin King

Quote from: dymphna17 on August 29, 2014, 10:33:10 PM
I don't know, I really would have missed the look on Hubby's face when I walked in.  We even got a picture of it and it's one of my favorites.

My Dad walking me up the aisle gave me strength and the courage I needed to make it up there.

Of course. I didn't mean to say your wedding was "wrong". One way to look at it is: if 99% of Novus Ordo weddings in America ignore the rubric (and that's 99% of all Catholic weddings in America, period), it would actually suggest that despite all the broken families out there, the vast majority of Catholic brides have a good relationship with their fathers. That's quite remarkable. I simply can't fathom 99% of all the women I know, outside of Catholic-dom, wanting their dads to escort them down the aisle.