Humility: Good or Bad?

Started by Probius, October 12, 2013, 08:23:04 PM

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Probius


Quote from: Christknight104 on October 12, 2013, 10:54:51 PM
Interestingly, the contemporary video game Bioshock focuses on Ayn Rand's Objectivist philosophy. The speech here that the main antagonist Andrew Ryan(notice that his name is a play on AYn Rand's name) declares summarizes the Objectivist opposition to altruism:

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That's beautiful, thank you.
You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe deserve your love and affection." - The Buddha

"Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate." - Carl Jung

Maximilian

Quote from: Crimson Flyboy on October 12, 2013, 08:23:04 PM

Humility is anti-humanistic

True. Humanism is the opposite of humility, humility is the opposite of humanism.


Quote from: Crimson Flyboy on October 12, 2013, 08:23:04 PM

pride is a wonderful virtue that celebrates man qua man.

True. The essence of pride is celebrating man in and for himself.

Maximilian

Quote from: LouisIX on October 12, 2013, 09:18:36 PM

How is humility anti-humanistic?

Humanism celebrates independence, but humility recognizes our dependence.
Humanism celebrates equality, but humility recognizes our inferiority.
Humanism celebrates the achievements of human society, while humility recognizes our nature as creatures who soon will die and whose activities apart from God are only evil.

Probius


Quote from: Maximilian on October 13, 2013, 09:41:13 PM
Quote from: Crimson Flyboy on October 12, 2013, 08:23:04 PM

Humility is anti-humanistic

True. Humanism is the opposite of humility, humility is the opposite of humanism.


Quote from: Crimson Flyboy on October 12, 2013, 08:23:04 PM

pride is a wonderful virtue that celebrates man qua man.

True. The essence of pride is celebrating man in and for himself.

Exactly, you nailed it.
You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe deserve your love and affection." - The Buddha

"Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate." - Carl Jung

mikemac

"Where pride is, there also shall be reproach: but where humility is, there also is wisdom." Proverbs 11:2

"Let us ask the Lord with tears, that according to his will so he would shew his mercy to us: that as our heart is troubled by their pride, so also we may glorify in our humility." Judith 8:17

"And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord.  And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.  Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.  Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name.  And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him. He hath shewed might in his arm: he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart.  He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble.  He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.  He hath received Israel his servant, being mindful of his mercy:  As he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed for ever." Luke 1:46-55

You should say a 'Glory Be' after this last prayer CF.  ;)
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
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Maximilian

Quote from: james03 on October 12, 2013, 09:29:41 PM

You have probably heard sermons where we are to view ourselves as nothing but worms.  This really is meant for mystics and those at very high level spiritual life.

No, this is meant for all of us. The more that I recognize the truth of God, and the more that I recognize the truth about myself, then the more I will realize that I am certainly much less than a worm. If I compare the inequality between God and myself, and then I compare the inequality between myself and a worm, the former is infinitely greater than the latter. One doesn't have to be a "mystic at a very high level of spiritual life" to comprehend this obvious truth.

Quote from: james03 on October 12, 2013, 09:29:41 PM
Humility is simply this:  telling the truth about yourself TO yourself and to God, and to others

Yes, this is the essence of humility. But what is this truth about myself and about God? This truth is enormous and incomprehensible. This truth takes a lifetime of effort and study to begin to understand.

Say I imagine the sun. And I realize that in terms of a scale that the human mind can comprehend, it is infinitely larger and greater than I am. Then I realize that there are billions of galaxies each of which contains billions of suns. So just my own sun alone is infinitely greater than I am, but the universe contains billions times billions of suns.

Now if we imagine the universe like a black sheet that is used for the backdrop of a play, and holes are poked into it to represent stars in a night scene, and behind the sheet is a lantern that provides all the light which comes through the many holes poked in the sheet to represent the many stars. God is the creative power, the lantern if you will, and just the reflection of His power which peeps through these holes in the fabric of the universe is infinitely beyond our comprehension.

These billions times billions of immense created objects that make up the universe defy our comprehension and are "infinite" in relation to our ability to comprehend them, but God is truly "infinite" in the most basic sense of the word, since it is the power of His uncreated being which creates and maintains in existence all of the incomprehensible infinitude of splendor in creation.

What kind of relationship can there be between me and this infinite reality?

If we had started with a smaller example of humility, we might have looked at our relationship with the government. On the one side there is me the individual. On the other side are the trillions of dollars worth of power that can annihilate entire nations at the touch of a button. I might talk big about resistance to the government, but the reality is that at any moment the government can crush me like a bug, and with less effort than it takes for me to stamp on a cockroach. Humility is recognizing that truth.

But what is the government of the United States or any other government compared to the power which creates and maintains in existence billions of galaxies? All the nuclear missiles and aircraft carriers in the world could not make even a dent in just our one sun; it would simply laugh at our puny pretensions.

And so it is like the "Powers of 10" video, recognizing a realistic assessment of my own smallness, comparing it to things that are much larger and more powerful than me, even on a local level, and then extending it outwards, except adding a last dimension beyond the end of the video, which includes the uncreated nature which maintains all of this in being.

This thought exercise explores only size and power, but what about the question of time, going backwards to pre-existence and forwards into eternity? And what about the question of ontology -- the difference between someone whose existence is contingent and dependent versus someone whose existence is eternal and uncreated? All of these things point to the reality that I must comprehend if I want to address the Truth of myself and the Truth of God, and the nature of the relationship between us.

Maximilian

Quote from: Crimson Flyboy on October 12, 2013, 09:45:49 PM

A thing is bad in so far as it does not advance man in his quest for survival. 

You define the teleological goal of man's life as being "survival." But we know that we all will die. And so this goal is doomed to failure. There is no chance for survival. Every single one of us will die before long. We can look at a photograph of a busy street in New York taken 100 years ago, and realize that every single person in that photograph is dead now.

That is why for thousands of years, even long before the time of Christ, the wise man thought only of one topic -- Death. And along with Death, the nature of the soul. Because if you want to survive, you have to survive death. That is an inescapable reality. Any so-called "philosopher" who cannot teach you how to survive death is only a charlatan.

In one of the books by Carlos Castaneda, Don Juan says "The warrior lives aware of the fact that Death is always standing one pace behind his left shoulder, ready at any moment to reach out and touch him." He also said, "When you die there is a great being which you can imagine like a giant black eagle 100 feet tall. It's not an eagle, of course, that's just an image. Now imagine that this giant being is trying to consume your soul like a bird eating a worm. Your job is to train yourself now in this life so that when you pass through the gateway of death you are prepared to evade destruction by this creature."

Naturally I don't agree with everything said by Carlos Castaneda, but I give him credit for creating vivid metaphors for the predicament in which we find ourselves.

If your current philosophy does not provide you with a way to survive death, then it is failing your own most basic criterion.

Probius


Quote from: Maximilian on October 13, 2013, 10:45:55 PM
Quote from: Crimson Flyboy on October 12, 2013, 09:45:49 PM

A thing is bad in so far as it does not advance man in his quest for survival. 

You define the teleological goal of man's life as being "survival." But we know that we all will die. And so this goal is doomed to failure. There is no chance for survival. Every single one of us will die before long. We can look at a photograph of a busy street in New York taken 100 years ago, and realize that every single person in that photograph is dead now.

That is why for thousands of years, even long before the time of Christ, the wise man thought only of one topic -- Death. And along with Death, the nature of the soul. Because if you want to survive, you have to survive death. That is an inescapable reality. Any so-called "philosopher" who cannot teach you how to survive death is only a charlatan.

In one of the books by Carlos Castaneda, Don Juan says "The warrior lives aware of the fact that Death is always standing one pace behind his left shoulder, ready at any moment to reach out and touch him." He also said, "When you die there is a great being which you can imagine like a giant black eagle 100 feet tall. It's not an eagle, of course, that's just an image. Now imagine that this giant being is trying to consume your soul like a bird eating a worm. Your job is to train yourself now in this life so that when you pass through the gateway of death you are prepared to evade destruction by this creature."

Naturally I don't agree with everything said by Carlos Castaneda, but I give him credit for creating vivid metaphors for the predicament in which we find ourselves.

If your current philosophy does not provide you with a way to survive death, then it is failing your own most basic criterion.

Reality does not provide me with a way to survive death.  A man survives as long as he can, then he dies.  It's that simple.
You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe deserve your love and affection." - The Buddha

"Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate." - Carl Jung

Maximilian

Quote from: Crimson Flyboy on October 14, 2013, 06:46:34 AM

Reality does not provide me with a way to survive death.  A man survives as long as he can, then he dies.  It's that simple.

Is it that simple? It's funny that you call yourself a humanist but you ignore and discard the thoughts of all the greatest minds of all times in history and all places around the world.

According to your own understanding, you are destined to failure -- you have never loved, and then you will die. You seem to have missed the point all the way around. A rather futile, meaningless existence.

Stupidity such as this is possible only through pride. It is humility which allows us to learn from the genius of others. Humility is truth. Pride is self-deception.

Probius


Quote from: Maximilian on October 14, 2013, 08:08:16 AM
Quote from: Crimson Flyboy on October 14, 2013, 06:46:34 AM

Reality does not provide me with a way to survive death.  A man survives as long as he can, then he dies.  It's that simple.

Is it that simple? It's funny that you call yourself a humanist but you ignore and discard the thoughts of all the greatest minds of all times in history and all places around the world.

According to your own understanding, you are destined to failure -- you have never loved, and then you will die. You seem to have missed the point all the way around. A rather futile, meaningless existence.

Stupidity such as this is possible only through pride. It is humility which allows us to learn from the genius of others. Humility is truth. Pride is self-deception.

I have ignored nothing.  I have thought about these matters, but have simply come to a different conclusion.  I simply cannot see a way for the existence of a soul to be real.  You cannot see it, you cannot hold it, you cannot smell it, you cannot hear it, ergo it does not exist.  That which is without matter or extension in space is that which is without existence.
You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe deserve your love and affection." - The Buddha

"Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate." - Carl Jung

Gerard

Quote from: Maximilian on October 13, 2013, 10:23:34 PM
Quote from: james03 on October 12, 2013, 09:29:41 PM

You have probably heard sermons where we are to view ourselves as nothing but worms.  This really is meant for mystics and those at very high level spiritual life.

No, this is meant for all of us. The more that I recognize the truth of God, and the more that I recognize the truth about myself, then the more I will realize that I am certainly much less than a worm. If I compare the inequality between God and myself, and then I compare the inequality between myself and a worm, the former is infinitely greater than the latter. One doesn't have to be a "mystic at a very high level of spiritual life" to comprehend this obvious truth.

An added dimension to consider is the inequality of God's love for us compared to our capacity for love.  What value do we place on worms as lives?  Would we condescend if we had the ability to become a worm? Would we build a world around and for the worms? Our own value is only determined by the value God gives it in His relation to us.

Gerard

Quote from: Crimson Flyboy on October 14, 2013, 08:16:39 AM

I have ignored nothing.  I have thought about these matters, but have simply come to a different conclusion.  I simply cannot see a way for the existence of a soul to be real.  You cannot see it, you cannot hold it, you cannot smell it, you cannot hear it, ergo it does not exist.  That which is without matter or extension in space is that which is without existence.

Do you believe in gravity? If so, what exactly is it?

Probius


Quote from: Gerard on October 14, 2013, 08:21:09 AM
Quote from: Crimson Flyboy on October 14, 2013, 08:16:39 AM

I have ignored nothing.  I have thought about these matters, but have simply come to a different conclusion.  I simply cannot see a way for the existence of a soul to be real.  You cannot see it, you cannot hold it, you cannot smell it, you cannot hear it, ergo it does not exist.  That which is without matter or extension in space is that which is without existence.

Do you believe in gravity? If so, what exactly is it?

Gravity is a real force which can be measured.
You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe deserve your love and affection." - The Buddha

"Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate." - Carl Jung

Maximilian

Quote from: Crimson Flyboy on October 14, 2013, 08:28:05 AM

Gravity is a real force which can be measured.

You're moving the goal posts. That wasn't your criteria. Here was your definition: "You cannot see it, you cannot hold it, you cannot smell it, you cannot hear it, ergo it does not exist.  That which is without matter or extension in space is that which is without existence."

How does gravity qualify?

Maximilian

Quote from: Crimson Flyboy on October 14, 2013, 08:16:39 AM

I have ignored nothing. 

That is pride speaking, the pride that prevents you from learning about truth and reality. I don't get the impression that you have read even the modern philosophers like Heidegger. You have an existentialist philosophy but you haven't read the existentialists.

Quote from: Crimson Flyboy on October 14, 2013, 08:16:39 AM
I have thought about these matters, but have simply come to a different conclusion. 

"Thinking about these matters" is pointless. The "thinking about the meaning of life" approach is doomed to failure because

1. I'm simply not smart enough. The smartest men who ever lived like Plato and Aristotle never really succeeded with that method. I'm not Plato or Aristotle.

2. I don't live long enough. The lifespan of a human is not sufficiently long to successfully conclude this undertaking. It's like a mayfly trying to figure out the meaning of its life. It's dead long before it will ever have succeeded.