Temptation to orthodoxy

[Prayerful]

One basic advantage Orthodoxy seems to have is the horrifying ugliness and vagueness of the Religion of Man seems nowhere to be seen. There are some orthodox churches formed on modernist architectural principles, but mosaics, paints and the jubé screen give it a beauty. Some Greek Rite parishes within Rome suffer from deforming influences, so instance Francis appointed bishops to the Italo-Albanesi Epharchy tend to just appoint Italian Latin Rite celibate priests, who are not the married Greek priests of that tradition. It just becomes a few parishes (fifteen) in the Mezzogiorno with nicer vestments rather than a rare and precious survival in the West, something that would otherwise far outshine those Eastern Orthodox efforts at the Latin Rite.

[nmoerbeek]

I haven't spent much time reading abut wider church affairs, at least not as much as I used to.  This has been a good thing for my spirituality and wellbeing.  I've also tried to keep a simpler Eastern spirituality.  the language of eastern spirituality speaks to my soul at this point in my life.  I don't have as much anxiety about whether i'm doing it all wrong, so prayer is a lot more restful.  but I have never formally switched rites.  my wife has been going to an eastern catholic church nearby and prefers it to the traditional latin mass.

Father respects the latin tradition very much, though.  for example he said that  even if my wife formally switches rites, the children are roman because i am roman rite.  If we want the boys to receive confirmation there, it has to be done through the proper channel.

we end up procrastinating on that. she is busy, dealing with the archdiocese and going through the motions of switching rites is daunting.  the lst time i talked to my wife about it, she said that she's thought about walking away from the catholic church and joining the orthodox church right in our neighborhood.  i think this is because the priest and his family have been very good to us.  since the pandemic started they have been allowing us to go into the church by ourselves to sit with jesus and pray without anyone else.  the building is wheelchair accessible so I can get in and out easily.  she has gotten to know some of the other mothers in the community and they have a thing where they talk on zoom and do their kniting projects.  on one level, i think the pull she's experiencing is emotional.  she feels a bond and connection to the church because the people there have shown us a lot of charity and she has some good friendships there.  but after the pope said what he said about civil unions, she said to me "I don't know why I bother being eastern catholic anymore.  why do I have to jump through these hoops and follow these rules so i can do the right thing when the pope has no regard for the rules?"  when the pandemic is over she wants the boys to receive confirmation.  my older one has already received solemn holy communion without confirmation

i see her point and i struggle a lot with remaining catholic.  it's not just francis church, but an even deeper sense of not knowing who I can trust within the church.  I also love our lady and the rosary and so many roman catholic traditions.  I also already had one conversion in my life and just do not have the energy to convert again.  I am an old dog and there are only so many new tricks I am going to learn.  My wife isn't in that same headspace.  She's spent a lot of her free time reading orthodox books...she's using an orthodox homeschool program where my son gets to take online courses in russian.  I never got to move past beginner russian and probably won't but it makes me happy to see him enjoy learning new things.  using orthodox religious education resources is appealing because  it doesnt carry the baggage of having to reconcile the official church teaching on the papacy with the problematic aspects of the current pontificate.

as much as I love the traditional Latin Mass, I can't experience it in person anymore and haven't for years.  As much as traditional Catholicism is its own beautiful liturgical tradition, I've gotten tired of the reactionary aspects of traditionalism.  being a trad today is as much about rejecting modernism and the new mass as it is about worshipping God.  I remember listening to sermon after sermon, many were fixated on the culture war.  I hate that my 10 year old son wouldn't even know what an abortion is if he hadn't heard about it at Mass.  Eastern Catholicism doesn't exist today in opposition to the Novus Ordo.  There isn't the same fixation with tradition for tradition's sake. 

has anyone felt this same "pull" toward the orthodox faith?  what has kept you from leaving?  I want to trust the church again but so much damage has been done.  I don't want to lead my family away from Heaven.

I have done my best to write this from the perspective of a Catholic that believes the Church is true but, I assume you already know the differences between Catholcism and  Orthodoxly so I do not directly address them except one example.

Your experience (so far) mirrors that of other people that I know have left traditional Catholicism for orthodoxy.

Disgust with certain aspects of Catholicism, leading to questions and searching for answers.  Eastern Orthodox Priest and wife become very welcoming and include you immediately in the parish family, met other people, often times Catholics or protestants who are also converts to EO.  Catholic devotional practices are not encouraged by the EO to be abandoned but they are gradually replaced.   Soon, the family is attending Catechism lessons just to learn more, and then they find themselves a few months or years down the line refuting the heresies of Catholicism before they are either Chrismed or rebaptized.

The same experience occurred with a man I know who suffered from alcoholism, and it was through the Kindness and stability of mormons that he overcame his problem, it ended in his conversion to Mormonism. Their work was a sufficient witness to him to not look to deeply into what he lost, the belief in Christ as God, for what he perceived as he gained, a stable community of believes who showed mutual affections. 

I think it is important to note that fatigue is a normal state in the spiritual life.  Many of your statements you have related about yourself, and your wife relate to fatigue. The EO offer a path that has an appearance to you of having less hardships, less paperwork for an Eastern Confirmation, a ready network of friends, a priest who goes out of his way to give you spiritual attention and so forth.  These things all allievate the fatigue that Francis is putting on the faithful.  It is also, to some degree, novel.  Novelty is very attractive.  New things alleviate fatigue. It is common for us in the Knights to have people easily embrace the Rule, and the demands of our brotherhood for a year or two, but at some point the novelty wears off, and thus the zeal gradually disappears and because it is no longer exciting they burn out. 

We must seek God with our whole hearts, what many Catholics and Christians really want is not struggle whether against the flesh (for example not keeping their marriages together)   in the mind and heart (its okay because Father says so, the Catechism says so, or why should I believe it if they (including the Pope don't), or the World (reconcile every unpopular thing with what is popular).

The fatigue seems to all come from a disgust with the people of the Church (Francis, paperwork, lack of received kindness) rather than a refutation of belief.  I do believe you and your wife are being tested and that we choose to do a hard thing or keep unto a hard thing because we believe it is true. I believe for example in the immaculate conception, and that this dogma has been backed up by multiple miracles of a public nature, the Orthodox do not believe it.  Is it possible that the local Orthodox may as a community sing beautiful Akathist and have a real tangible devotion to Our Lady?, Yes.  But, if I leave the Church and abjure the immaculate conception I know that when I am with them I am in fact going against what I believe to be true. 

You must put in the work here if you are going to be honest, you are feeling (and your wife more intensely) a pull to a community of believes that show you affection and have given you good things, but do you believe that their beliefs are right or wrong and if they had shown you no affections and cruelty instead would you still want to join?  If instead of tons of Roman Catholic paperwork you had to do tons of Eastern Orthodox paperwork?  It is an important question for you and your wife to think about. If you are not willing to suffer for Catholic beliefs or through Catholic irritations, do you believe Orthodoxy to suffer for their beliefs and irritations there?

[Chestertonian]

I have done my best to write this from the perspective of a Catholic that believes the Church is true but, I assume you already know the differences between Catholcism and  Orthodoxly so I do not directly address them except one example.

Your experience (so far) mirrors that of other people that I know have left traditional Catholicism for orthodoxy.

Disgust with certain aspects of Catholicism, leading to questions and searching for answers.  Eastern Orthodox Priest and wife become very welcoming and include you immediately in the parish family, met other people, often times Catholics or protestants who are also converts to EO.  Catholic devotional practices are not encouraged by the EO to be abandoned but they are gradually replaced.   Soon, the family is attending Catechism lessons just to learn more, and then they find themselves a few months or years down the line refuting the heresies of Catholicism before they are either Chrismed or rebaptized.

The same experience occurred with a man I know who suffered from alcoholism, and it was through the Kindness and stability of mormons that he overcame his problem, it ended in his conversion to Mormonism. Their work was a sufficient witness to him to not look to deeply into what he lost, the belief in Christ as God, for what he perceived as he gained, a stable community of believes who showed mutual affections. 

I think it is important to note that fatigue is a normal state in the spiritual life.  Many of your statements you have related about yourself, and your wife relate to fatigue. The EO offer a path that has an appearance to you of having less hardships, less paperwork for an Eastern Confirmation, a ready network of friends, a priest who goes out of his way to give you spiritual attention and so forth.  These things all allievate the fatigue that Francis is putting on the faithful.  It is also, to some degree, novel.  Novelty is very attractive.  New things alleviate fatigue. It is common for us in the Knights to have people easily embrace the Rule, and the demands of our brotherhood for a year or two, but at some point the novelty wears off, and thus the zeal gradually disappears and because it is no longer exciting they burn out. 

We must seek God with our whole hearts, what many Catholics and Christians really want is not struggle whether against the flesh (for example not keeping their marriages together)   in the mind and heart (its okay because Father says so, the Catechism says so, or why should I believe it if they (including the Pope don't), or the World (reconcile every unpopular thing with what is popular).

The fatigue seems to all come from a disgust with the people of the Church (Francis, paperwork, lack of received kindness) rather than a refutation of belief.  I do believe you and your wife are being tested and that we choose to do a hard thing or keep unto a hard thing because we believe it is true. I believe for example in the immaculate conception, and that this dogma has been backed up by multiple miracles of a public nature, the Orthodox do not believe it.  Is it possible that the local Orthodox may as a community sing beautiful Akathist and have a real tangible devotion to Our Lady?, Yes.  But, if I leave the Church and abjure the immaculate conception I know that when I am with them I am in fact going against what I believe to be true. 

You must put in the work here if you are going to be honest, you are feeling (and your wife more intensely) a pull to a community of believes that show you affection and have given you good things, but do you believe that their beliefs are right or wrong and if they had shown you no affections and cruelty instead would you still want to join?  If instead of tons of Roman Catholic paperwork you had to do tons of Eastern Orthodox paperwork?  It is an important question for you and your wife to think about. If you are not willing to suffer for Catholic beliefs or through Catholic irritations, do you believe Orthodoxy to suffer for their beliefs and irritations there?

thanks this is helpful

the paperwork thing might not even be any better if w go orthodox... I'm sure there's red tape and bureaucracy there just.... novel bureaucracy

[Traditionallyruralmom]

Disgust with certain aspects of Catholicism, leading to questions and searching for answers.  Eastern Orthodox Priest and wife become very welcoming and include you immediately in the parish family, met other people, often times Catholics or protestants who are also converts to EO.  Catholic devotional practices are not encouraged by the EO to be abandoned but they are gradually replaced.   Soon, the family is attending Catechism lessons just to learn more, and then they find themselves a few months or years down the line refuting the heresies of Catholicism before they are either Chrismed or rebaptized.

The same experience occurred with a man I know who suffered from alcoholism, and it was through the Kindness and stability of mormons that he overcame his problem, it ended in his conversion to Mormonism. Their work was a sufficient witness to him to not look to deeply into what he lost, the belief in Christ as God, for what he perceived as he gained, a stable community of believes who showed mutual affections. 

This sounds just like a family I know (wife, not husband..she led, he was dragged) who left the Church for becoming Amish.  Welcoming community right out the door, huge family's, school available, women who aren't ashamed to be women....I get it.  I get it every time I drive past an amish school that has a playground full of kids.  Wish I had that for my brood.
But I know the downsides of it all.  And I could never leave Our Lady in the fullness of what we believe as Catholics.  Ever. 

[Greg]

Whenever I encounter a priest and I tell him that after 7 years of Francis church and ever worsening scandals coming from Rome he essentially tells me to stop reading the news, stick my fingers in my ears and go "la la la la."

Who can we look to for leadership?  +burke?

I have come to the conclusion that the RCC is so totally screwed up it must be true. Only God could let things get that FUBAR and still save the day with a Hail Mary pass.

I would sooner stay in a burning WACO and believe David Koresh was the messiah than that there was any probability that the RCC can rise from the ashes.

Which is exactly what God wants.  You to understand that the worse it gets the better it gets when you win.  Like Trump winning against all of the forces of the world whilst being the most annoying, smug troll possible.

It is beautiful. 

[dymphnaw]

Has anybody ever actually read Orthodox forums or Orthodox Twitter? The people are horrible. It's horrible. The only thing the various groups agree upon is their hatred of Catholics. I've watched Orthodox Christmas and Easter on YouTube and it's appealing until you remember that day to day Orthodox life allows for divorce,  and is known for lying supine before the secular rulers. As for being welcoming, that's just classic cult behavior. The Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons bombard visitors with loving attention and flattery. Catholics, you have no excuses. Our Lord said things would get tough. Our Lady repeatedly said there would be suffering, and that many would fall away. There is only one Church-- all the rest are nothing and no bad pope, no pervert man who got himself ordained and no lay person running a blog or forum is going to talk me into leave the Faith.

[Prayerful]

Has anybody ever actually read Orthodox forums or Orthodox Twitter? The people are horrible. It's horrible. The only thing the various groups agree upon is their hatred of Catholics. I've watched Orthodox Christmas and Easter on YouTube and it's appealing until you remember that day to day Orthodox life allows for divorce,  and is known for lying supine before the secular rulers. As for being welcoming, that's just classic cult behavior. The Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons bombard visitors with loving attention and flattery. Catholics, you have no excuses. Our Lord said things would get tough. Our Lady repeatedly said there would be suffering, and that many would fall away. There is only one Church-- all the rest are nothing and no bad pope, no pervert man who got himself ordained and no lay person running a blog or forum is going to talk me into leave the Faith.

I think they allow three sacramental marriages, after an Emperor who needed three tries to get a satisfactory wive. Online Orthodoxy are indeed demented, although it is initially concealed, and easily riled. Orthodoxy itself has adopted a number of positions simply because they differ from the Catholic position.

[Miriam_M]

Catholics, you have no excuses.

Indeed, discouragement is not an excuse; it's an emotional justification for lack of faith, and just understand that I accuse myself of the same, as I said earlier.  But discouragement is not an article of faith; it's an emotion that is the most convenient path of entry for the Devil, into our souls. He has access to our emotions and obviously loves the negative ones. Discouragement is not some kind of evidence that God is absent from our souls or from the Catholic Church.

Our Lord said things would get tough. Our Lady repeatedly said there would be suffering, and that many would fall away. There is only one Church-- all the rest are nothing and no bad pope, no pervert man who got himself ordained and no lay person running a blog or forum is going to talk me into leave the Faith.

And, in addition to being judged on the quality of our charity, we will also be judged on whether we scandalized others by giving into our emotions, bringing others down with us, or whether we at least tried to be the opposite example, because that very effort is a sign of love.

[coffeeandcigarette]

Whenever I encounter a priest and I tell him that after 7 years of Francis church and ever worsening scandals coming from Rome he essentially tells me to stop reading the news, stick my fingers in my ears and go "la la la la."

Who can we look to for leadership?  +burke?

They are not far off, and I'll tell you why. In the good old days before Radio, Tv, Internet, etc, people barely knew who the Pope was. They didn't know what his opinions were about anything. They didn't hear any of his conversations. Newspaper articles weren't being published about him all the time asking this or that. Normal people sat in the pew, prayed to Our Lady, and tried to be saints. Simple. We have too much information now. We hear everything, see everything, he talks non-stop and says stupid crap because he has interviews, TV appearances, etc. All the liberal media egg him on, waiting with bated breath for him to say something that makes trads shudder and libs cheer. My best advice to you is to pretend you don't have TV, news, Radio, etc. Focus on Christ, Mary, and your own soul. Good luck!

[Reader]

Popes should go back to speaking less and thinking more. The age of the Superstar Pope really needs to end.

[Miriam_M]

Popes should go back to speaking less and thinking more. The age of the Superstar Pope really needs to end.

This should be thanked 100 times.  Going beyond Francis here:
This is why I want to barph (sorry) when I hear Catholics talk about the "heroic virtue" of popes in the recent past who shall not be named.  Seeking prominence by unnecessarily commenting and re-commenting on already declared and generously reaffirmed truths of the faith is which Catholic virtue, again? Your Holiness, you're just not all "that."  You're not telling us anything new, but you feel compelled to write an encyclical repeating what other popes and what the Fathers and Doctors have already said much better than you want to say it.  Deal with it and humbly accept that evident fact.

A pope who wishes to be "relevant" and lead the Catholic world or the world in general (secondarily or by extension) should be addressing the new spiritual crises Catholics and others find themselves in during these godless times.  And he should model himself after those previous popes who spoke sparingly and judiciously, not constantly.

Back to Francis, then:  He has failed to address the original crises that we Catholics now find ourselves in, suddenly, in contemporary times.  Combine that with his heterodox statements, and he truly is just a figurehead who is useless in any practical sense to traditional Catholics.

[tradne4163]

Chesterton, this may come as a shock considering what's in my religion field, but as things sit right now you shouldn't make the jump to Orthodoxy. In fact any Orthodox priest worth his salt would advise you to work out your issues where you are. Coming into Orthodoxy, much like coming into the Roman Catholic Church, ought to be done out of conviction and faith that it is the Church of Christ. Switching as a reaction to problems, whether they are real or merely misperceptions, will not lead to a solid foundation. It will however lead to a risk of restlessness and constant movement in a vain search for a church without flawed people leading it.

[Vetus Ordo]

Chesterton, this may come as a shock considering what's in my religion field, but as things sit right now you shouldn't make the jump to Orthodoxy. In fact any Orthodox priest worth his salt would advise you to work out your issues where you are. Coming into Orthodoxy, much like coming into the Roman Catholic Church, ought to be done out of conviction and faith that it is the Church of Christ. Switching as a reaction to problems, whether they are real or merely misperceptions, will not lead to a solid foundation. It will however lead to a risk of restlessness and constant movement in a vain search for a church without flawed people leading it.

While your advice is reasonable on a human level, it also highlights a certain paradox. If the Orthodox were in fact the one true church, why wouldn't Chesterton be encouraged to come in? He will surely die if he stays outside. Even if he jumps in the boat without the mature conviction that is commendable to any soul, he is still benefiting from being in.

Or are you saying he is already a member of the Orthodox Church in voto?

[Christe Eleison]

Dear CHES,

I am sad to read about what you are going through 
You & your family are in our prayers! Please hang in there!

Stay close to Our Blessed Lord,  the Saints, your Guardian Angel, Saint Michael the Archangel, The Blessed Virgin Mary, Saint Vincent Ferrer, Saint Jude Ora Pro Nobis!

Please do not leave Holy Mother Church! 

I haven't spent much time reading abut wider church affairs, at least not as much as I used to.  This has been a good thing for my spirituality and wellbeing.  I've also tried to keep a simpler Eastern spirituality.  the language of eastern spirituality speaks to my soul at this point in my life.  I don't have as much anxiety about whether i'm doing it all wrong, so prayer is a lot more restful.  but I have never formally switched rites.  my wife has been going to an eastern catholic church nearby and prefers it to the traditional latin mass.

Father respects the latin tradition very much, though.  for example he said that  even if my wife formally switches rites, the children are roman because i am roman rite.  If we want the boys to receive confirmation there, it has to be done through the proper channel.

we end up procrastinating on that. she is busy, dealing with the archdiocese and going through the motions of switching rites is daunting.  the lst time i talked to my wife about it, she said that she's thought about walking away from the catholic church and joining the orthodox church right in our neighborhood.  i think this is because the priest and his family have been very good to us.  since the pandemic started they have been allowing us to go into the church by ourselves to sit with jesus and pray without anyone else.  the building is wheelchair accessible so I can get in and out easily.  she has gotten to know some of the other mothers in the community and they have a thing where they talk on zoom and do their kniting projects.  on one level, i think the pull she's experiencing is emotional.  she feels a bond and connection to the church because the people there have shown us a lot of charity and she has some good friendships there.  but after the pope said what he said about civil unions, she said to me "I don't know why I bother being eastern catholic anymore.  why do I have to jump through these hoops and follow these rules so i can do the right thing when the pope has no regard for the rules?"  when the pandemic is over she wants the boys to receive confirmation.  my older one has already received solemn holy communion without confirmation

i see her point and i struggle a lot with remaining catholic.  it's not just francis church, but an even deeper sense of not knowing who I can trust within the church.  I also love our lady and the rosary and so many roman catholic traditions.  I also already had one conversion in my life and just do not have the energy to convert again.  I am an old dog and there are only so many new tricks I am going to learn.  My wife isn't in that same headspace.  She's spent a lot of her free time reading orthodox books...she's using an orthodox homeschool program where my son gets to take online courses in russian.  I never got to move past beginner russian and probably won't but it makes me happy to see him enjoy learning new things.  using orthodox religious education resources is appealing because  it doesnt carry the baggage of having to reconcile the official church teaching on the papacy with the problematic aspects of the current pontificate.

as much as I love the traditional Latin Mass, I can't experience it in person anymore and haven't for years.  As much as traditional Catholicism is its own beautiful liturgical tradition, I've gotten tired of the reactionary aspects of traditionalism.  being a trad today is as much about rejecting modernism and the new mass as it is about worshipping God.  I remember listening to sermon after sermon, many were fixated on the culture war.  I hate that my 10 year old son wouldn't even know what an abortion is if he hadn't heard about it at Mass.  Eastern Catholicism doesn't exist today in opposition to the Novus Ordo.  There isn't the same fixation with tradition for tradition's sake. 

has anyone felt this same "pull" toward the orthodox faith?  what has kept you from leaving?  I want to trust the church again but so much damage has been done.  I don't want to lead my family away from Heaven.

[Michael Wilson]

Popes should go back to speaking less and thinking more. The age of the Superstar Pope really needs to end.

The age of the non-Catholics posing as Popes (and not doing a very good job of it) has to go.